Re: [asa] EU proposed regulation of creationism and ID

On 9/21/07, John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> I never said the document itself criminalizes faith, but rather there are
> forces at work in or culture that are. Consider that they may have "wedge"
> documents of their own.

You made specific accusations towards Gore and Dawkins. It's good to
hear that you are at least moderating your claims to hypotheticals

> I can accept that there in fact may be a need for these guidelines
> especially in light of other religious influences that may seek to hijack
> science to its own ends. But I contend atheism is as guilty of this as is
> Christianity and Islam.

We are all guilty of our follies.

> So I ask, at what point has atheism in science gone too far? Consider a
> modern day paraphrase of Niemöller:

> First they outlawed the creationists but I said nothing because I wasn't a
> creationist.
>
> Then they outlawed the IDers and I said nothing because I wasn't an IDer.
>
> Then they outlawed TE's but I said nothing because I wasn't a TE.
>
> You get the picture...

Yes, a picture of a flawed analogy. I am sure you get the picture....
So far, creationists, Christians have little to fear from Europe. To
claim any similarity is just an insult to logic and history alike.

A sad day indeed.

> John
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
> Behalf Of Don Nield
> Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 11:54 PM
> To: John Walley
> Cc: 'George Murphy'; 'James Mahaffy'; 'AmericanScientificAffiliation'
> Subject: Re: [asa] EU proposed regulation of creationism and ID
>
> John is reading into the EU document something that is not there.
> Sure, I have more in common with Denyse and ID than I have with Dawkins
> when it comes to religion-- far more. But when Denyse and those of like
> mind talk nonsense about the teaching of science they do not advance the
> teaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
> Further, it is unreasonable to see the current EU resolution as a trend
> to criminalize faith. It does no such thing. It sets out guidelines as
> to what is good science.
> Don
>
> John Walley wrote:
> > What is wrong with that is that while most of the focus on this list is
> > straining gnats to protect science from faith, in contrast by allowing the
> > marginalization and even criminalization of all forms of faith in our
> > society under the guise of science, it is the equivalent of swallowing
> > camels.
> >
> > I do not think the forces behind these movements are as benign as you may
> > think in defending science from overzealous Christians. With prominent
> > scientists like Dawkins publicly equating faith with child-abuse and
> > prominent politicians like Al Gore equating Christian faith with Islamic
> > terrorism, it doesn't take a genius to see where this is all heading.
> Having
> > pure science will be little consolation when they come for you. A
> paraphrase
> > of Martin Niemöller would be appropriate here.
> >
> > The resistance to this growing trend that Denyse and others is appropriate
> > even if politically misguided and the science is somewhat tenous.
> > Regardless, if you share the bonds of Christ, then you have more in common
> > with Denyse and ID proponents than you do with Dawkins and those behind
> this
> > trend to criminalize faith. I would think that should be obvious to you.
> >
> > John
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
> > Behalf Of Don Nield
> > Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 10:03 PM
> > To: John Walley
> > Cc: 'George Murphy'; 'James Mahaffy'; 'AmericanScientificAffiliation'
> > Subject: Re: [asa] EU proposed regulation of creationism and ID
> >
> > John Walley wrote:
> >
> >> But in fairness, by this definition of ID below which they still term
> >> "dangerous", it disqualifies any form of theism and accepts only natural
> >> selection as science.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > What is wrong with that? Is not the implication of the document that
> > science employs methodological naturalism?
> >
> >> While granted it may be more properly addressed in philosophy or religion
> >> classes, at least the NAS concedes that TE is not in conflict with
> >>
> > science.
> >
> >> That sounds liberal compared to these regulations.
> >>
> >>
> > Not to me. These are not regulations but rather guidelines as to what is
> > good science and what is not.
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> John
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> "Creationism has many contradictory aspects. The "intelligent design"
> >>
> >> theory, which is the latest, more refined version of creationism, does
> >>
> >> not deny a certain degree of evolution but claims that this is the work
> >>
> >> of a superior intelligence and not natural selection. Though more subtle
> >>
> >>
> >> in its presentation, the doctrine of intelligent design is no less
> >>
> >> dangerous."
> >>
> >>
> > Don
> >
>
>
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Received on Sat Sep 22 01:45:26 2007