Re: [asa] What Does ID Add?

Peter,

Michael wasn't using ad hominem, which would have been a direct attack on
you.

Frankly, I don't like Michael's viciously sarcastic style - I have
challenged him for it on this list, and been called "St. Iain" for it.
Michael clearly needs to do some growing up.

However, the accusations of dishonesty on the part of organisations like AiG
are perfectly justifiable. Did you read my post about the Humphreys
cosmology? AiG are still pushing it, despite it being demonstrated, first
by a letter to the Tech Journal, and later with a paper of over 160
equations that I helped to check. This paper was by a another YEC who is at
least honest. He had no intellectual commitment to Darwinism, and remains a
staunch YEC. Yet they have totally ignored his work, and continue to
support this completely false theory.

That is disgraceful and totally dishonest. I'm not making some sort of ad
hominem attack. I'm just telling the truth. If you continue to ignore
this, then you are indeed condoning dishonesty.

Iain

On 9/9/07, Peter Loose <peterwloose@compuserve.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Michael,
>
>
>
> For the record, again, I will say nothing more about fraud or matters of
> that sort in the way you pose the issues. Ad-hominem is a style to be
> shunned is it not?
>
>
>
> There is law and there is grace. Shall we *as a matter of general
> principle* err on the side of grace perhaps? There is fine precedent for
> that: "Let him that is without sin cast the first stone." You know the
> context.
>
>
>
> You choose to judge and declare publicly that I condone lying. You are of
> course free to make whatever deductions you please: I am not troubled either
> way. Those deductions of yours are largely speculative and may, or may not,
> have anything to do with my actual position. Silence does not automatically
> mean consent.
>
>
>
> I rather think Michael that you ought by now to know very well what is
> meant by 'Darwinism'. So far as I know, having been involved with the
> subject for about fifty years, I have no private interpretation of that well
> used term. Don't others seem to have understood my question?
>
>
>
> Peter
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] *On
> Behalf Of *Michael Roberts
> *Sent:* Sunday, September 09, 2007 1:29 PM
> *To:* Peter Loose; 'David Opderbeck'; 'AmericanScientificAffiliation'
> *Subject:* Re: [asa] What Does ID Add?
>
>
>
> Peter
>
>
>
> Before you pose more questions please consider the accusations of fraud in
> connection with the Peppered Moth I highlighted.
>
>
>
> It is clear that you do not wish to consider them and thus you are
> condoning lying. How do you reconcile this with your claim to be a
> Christian?
>
>
>
> As for your question it can be easily answered. Who are the Christians
> identified strongly with Darwinism? I can't name any, except those possibly
> in the sea of Faith group - who don't understand Darwin anyway.
>
>
>
> Also what do you mean by Darwinism?
>
>
>
> Michael
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* Peter Loose <peterwloose@compuserve.com>
>
> *To:* 'David Opderbeck' <dopderbeck@gmail.com> ;
> 'AmericanScientificAffiliation' <asa@calvin.edu>
>
> *Sent:* Sunday, September 09, 2007 9:09 AM
>
> *Subject:* RE: [asa] What Does ID Add?
>
>
>
>
>
> David:
>
>
>
> May I pose the same form of question as you concluded with?
>
>
>
> "Why is it seemingly important for many Christians to identify strongly
> with Darwinism?"
>
>
>
> This is looking for much more than one-liner quick quips.
>
>
>
> Thank you
>
>
>
> Peter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] *On
> Behalf Of *David Opderbeck
> *Sent:* Sunday, September 09, 2007 1:23 AM
> *To:* AmericanScientificAffiliation
> *Subject:* [asa] What Does ID Add?
>
>
>
> I'd particularly like to hear from folks who are sympathetic to ID and OEC
> -- what do you think ID adds with respect to relating science, faith and
> scripture?
>
>
>
> As I read materials from OEC's who are sympathetic to ID and hesitant or
> antagonistic about TE, I often feel a sort of disconnect. When discussing
> the age of the earth, OEC's mention all sorts of things about God revealing
> himself through nature as well as through scripture, doing our best to take
> all of God's revelation together, not interpreting scripture in ways that
> seem to clearly contradict well established scientific findings, and so on.
> And yet, when the same folks talk about evolution and ID, the discussion
> seems to change entirely -- now the discussion on the scientific side is all
> about questioning the assumptions of science, scientism, and so forth.
>
>
>
> I'm trying to understand why so many OEC's find it so important to
> critique "macro"evolution in this fashion. As far as I'm concerned, the
> most vexing problems with a TE position -- death before the fall, theodicy,
> who / what / when was Adam, the fall, original sin, what / when was the
> flood, what is the present "groaning" of creation, how will creation be
> renewed or "restored" in the eschaton -- are equally difficult whether one
> is an OEC or a TE. So why is "macro"evolution such a dividing line for most
> OEC's?
>
>
>
> Two things come to my mind: (1) ID might help support certain concordist
> "day-age" views that require sudden developmental jumps in kinds of animals;
> and (2) ID might serve as a useful apologetic device against folks who think
> evolution gets rid of God. Is there anything else? Particularly for OEC's
> who are open to "framework" and other understandings of Genesis 1 and 2, is
> the potential apologetic value of ID worth the candle of the divide between
> OEC-ID and TE?
>
>
>
> Note -- I'm not asking for critiques of the vaucousness or non-vaucousness
> of ID. I'm more interested in a question of identity -- why is it seemingly
> important for many OEC's to identify strongly with ID?
>
>
>
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