[asa] Arminianism - Pre existence.... WAS atheist babies.... WAS Behe's Math... WAS Arrogance

I find that the doctrine of pre-existence nicely solves this problem but for
some reason it is considered heretical , possibly because it is also a
Mormon doctrine, but I don't think that should disqualify it across the
board.

It is true that it makes God seem unjust and unfair if he puts babies in
homes of Satanists that intend to ritually abuse them and sacrifice them
etc, so the only logical recourse to this in my mind is to consider that
pre-existing spiritual beings (angels) volunteered for the assignment based
on their knowledge of the situation beforehand and their level of faith and
service. I don't see anything wrong with this and not only does it provide
a reasonable theodicy and resolve Phil's thorny issue below, it brings to
light Jesus's command to remember the least of these among us and that the
last shall be first.

It does seem counter to Dick's non-imago dei, hybrid, humans though and I am
not sure how that can be reconciled at present.

John

-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of philtill@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2007 12:39 PM
To: dopderbeck@gmail.com
Cc: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: atheist babies (was Re: [asa] Behe's Math... was Arrogance)

But then there are those of us who are perhaps a bit more Arminian than we'd
like to admit, and who believe that a parent's influence really is key

My thinking is that this reveals the basic problem with Arminianism: if
salvation hinges on our own choice, then how can it be just for God to put
babies in families where the parents will bend their choice against him?
Isn't that unjust toward the baby? This is just an example of the overall
"injustice" of being a part of corporately fallen humanity; it helps to put
the apparent injustice into focus. But in Calvinism there is no injustice
with this as a few moments thought should reveal. Parent's influence really
is key, and God has ordained it so as a part of his means of grace or
judgement. This is biblical theology, I think, where the family unit and
even larger people-groups are usually called to God corporately.

Phil

-----Original Message-----
From: David Opderbeck <dopderbeck@gmail.com>
To: Rich Blinne <rich.blinne@gmail.com>
Cc: George Murphy <gmurphy@raex.com>; John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com>;
Iain Strachan <igd.strachan@gmail.com>; PvM <pvm.pandas@gmail.com>; Gregory
Arago <gregoryarago@yahoo.ca>; AmericanScientificAffiliation
<asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 9:24 am
Subject: Re: atheist babies (was Re: [asa] Behe's Math... was Arrogance)

But then there are those of us who are perhaps a bit more Arminian than we'd
like to admit, and who believe that a parent's influence really is key......
(and some of us caught between Calvin and Arminius have children with
profound developmental disabilities, and so wonder /agonize about how God's
grace, free will, and sovereignty play into the fate of their own children
as well....)

On 8/31/07, Rich Blinne <rich.blinne@gmail.com> wrote:

On Aug 31, 2007, at 7:01 AM, George Murphy wrote:

> It might help to put this business about cute 3 year olds in
> theological perspective. A few years ago a writer to the "letters
> to the editor" column of my local paper stated that "all babies are
> born 100% atheists." He apparently thought that was a profound
> putdown of Christianity but it's basically what Augustana 2 says
> about original sin - that all people are born without true fear of
> God or true faith in God. That is true of Skatje - and you - and me.
>

A visiting pastor was asked to do a baptism at a local Presbyterian
church. He said he would be willing to do that. He was then asked to
present a white rose to the parents. He asked what it symbolized.
Well, the innocence of the child, of course. He then asked, "then
what does the water symbolize?"

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Received on Sun Sep 2 14:36:33 2007