Re: atheist babies (was Re: [asa] Behe's Math... was Arrogance)

Phil said: *if salvation hinges on our own choice, then how can it be just
for God to put babies in families where the parents will bend their
choice against him? Isn't that unjust toward the baby? *

But then, some Arminian perspectives might take issue with the notion that
God "put" the baby in that family. The family made a free choice to have a
baby. Somewhere down the line -- maybe as far down the line as the time of
Adam or Noah -- some ancestors of that family had an opportunity to hear
about the one true God and rejected Him. The consequences of those choices
reverberate through history.

And we are left with this: (1) a family made a choice to have a baby that
will grow up without an opportunity to hear the gospel, perhaps because some
ancestor of the baby chose to reject God and set his ancestry on that
course; and (2) God decreed that that a baby should be born, which baby God
decreed will never hear the gospel.

At least with (1), there was some historical contingency through which
things did not have to turn out as they did. And this suggests that things
do not have to continue as they are -- missionaries could still reach that
baby with the gospel, and the fate of a whole line of people could thereby
be changed. With (2), there is absolutely nothing that could have been done
or that ever could be done to save that baby. God created it for the
flames.

Honestly, I don't really like (1) or (2) as I've stated them -- and I don't
think either in themselves really capture fully the Biblical picture, which
in this regard I think gives us analogical language such as "choice" and
"chosen" that can only very dimly capture something ineffable.

On 9/2/07, philtill@aol.com <philtill@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> But then there are those of us who are perhaps a bit more Arminian than
> we'd like to admit, and who believe that a parent's influence really is key
>
>
> My thinking is that this reveals the basic problem with Arminianism: if
> salvation hinges on our own choice, then how can it be just for God to put
> babies in families where the parents will bend their choice against him?
> Isn't that unjust toward the baby? This is just an example of the overall
> "injustice" of being a part of corporately fallen humanity; it helps to put
> the apparent injustice into focus. But in Calvinism there is no injustice
> with this as a few moments thought should reveal. Parent's influence really
> is key, and God has ordained it so as a part of his means of grace or
> judgement. This is biblical theology, I think, where the family unit and
> even larger people-groups are usually called to God corporately.
>
> Phil
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Opderbeck <dopderbeck@gmail.com>
> To: Rich Blinne <rich.blinne@gmail.com>
> Cc: George Murphy <gmurphy@raex.com>; John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com>;
> Iain Strachan <igd.strachan@gmail.com>; PvM <pvm.pandas@gmail.com>;
> Gregory Arago <gregoryarago@yahoo.ca>; AmericanScientificAffiliation <
> asa@calvin.edu>
> Sent: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 9:24 am
> Subject: Re: atheist babies (was Re: [asa] Behe's Math... was Arrogance)
>
> But then there are those of us who are perhaps a bit more Arminian than
> we'd like to admit, and who believe that a parent's influence really is
> key...... (and some of us caught between Calvin and Arminius have children
> with profound developmental disabilities, and so wonder /agonize about how
> God's grace, free will, and sovereignty play into the fate of their own
> children as well....)
>
> On 8/31/07, Rich Blinne <rich.blinne@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Aug 31, 2007, at 7:01 AM, George Murphy wrote:
> >
> > > It might help to put this business about cute 3 year olds in
> > > theological perspective. A few years ago a writer to the "letters
> > > to the editor" column of my local paper stated that "all babies are
> > > born 100% atheists." He apparently thought that was a profound
> > > putdown of Christianity but it's basically what Augustana 2 says
> > > about original sin - that all people are born without true fear of
> > > God or true faith in God. That is true of Skatje - and you - and me.
> > >
> >
> > A visiting pastor was asked to do a baptism at a local Presbyterian
> > church. He said he would be willing to do that. He was then asked to
> > present a white rose to the parents. He asked what it symbolized.
> > Well, the innocence of the child, of course. He then asked, "then
> > what does the water symbolize?"
> >
> > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
> > "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
> >
>
>
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Received on Sun Sep 2 15:31:04 2007