Re: [asa] Theological Naturalism - 'The Nature of God' = Naturalism

Let's don't call out the ganging up mentality so quickly, Michael. Your views are not exactly hospitable to ANY questioning or criticism of the neo-evolutionary paradigm; by that measure you are quite obviously close-minded in your own lovable way. Because you are a geologist you seem to think this somehow privileges your role in discussion about science and religion - the world is 'old' deal with it - nothing else matters. Well, I'm sorry to say, the topic is a bit more complex and nuanced than that and you should welcome voices that bring an alternative perspective that involves human beings instead of rocks and minerals! You are not in America and shouldn't try to speak as one voice with those in 'the land where ID was invented.'

  More likely, it is as simple as Michael defending the status quo, offering nothing NEW to the discourse, but wobbly commentary on ID that oftentimes verges on cynicism. No good words to say about IDists «9those who hold theory/hypothesis) oftentimes means disregarding their religious motivation for posing an alternative to evolutionary ideology and the doctrine of meaninglessness and purposelessness. Quite clearly, Michael and Pim make good discussion partners at ASA in their inflexibility to hear views that don't agree with theirs and in their penchant for nihilistic, nay, better, fatalistic contribution. I am neither so quick to give up hope nor to point the blame at IDists for 'damaging science,' which has its own problems as do all other spheres of the academy in their 'struggle for recognition,' their public face.
   
  The sun just obviously doesn't shine enough these days to please those two persons. So, why not rat on ID as if it is the greatest enemy to their beloved science that the contemporary world has to offer?! Sad to see such a bias displayed by persons who apparently swore to integrity as academics, to follow the evidence and consider the methods where they lead.
   
  "I am around many evo biologists and I can assure you that more scientists than ever before are angry and frustrated at Christians – because of ID." - Wendee
   
  More scientists may indeed be angry at religious persons (and there are many factors involved, not just ID), but many more non-scientists have realized that preaching universalistic evolutionism, defending it with the label 'pure science,' i.e. as 'natural history' not also as 'theory,' is simply no longer satisfactory. None of the natural sciences covers those areas of human existence that over-reach the evolutionary paradigm. And as K. Popper counselled us, we should always keep on the lookout for alternative paradigms. Surely in the information age, where the material basis for science and technology production is begging for a re-definition away from pure materiality, scientists at ASA should be open to hearing discussion about science and religion that is not constrained to outdated dichotomies and ways of thinking.
   
  I've been watching ID for nearly as long as Michael and, though critical, and surely not an IDist, can draw a much different picture (and I think a much more holistic one) of the IDM, that does not sling arrows at fellow Christians so quickly. And yet Michael bluntly accuses me of not listening! What a song!
   
  Why not let's ask Michael Roberts, to actually respond to the topic of this thread: how would he define 'theological naturalism'? Anyone figure he might not wish to answer?
   
  Gregory A.
   
  
Michael Roberts <michael.andrea.r@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
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 mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto } SPAN.apple-style-span { mso-style-name: apple-style-span } SPAN.EmailStyle19 { COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-style-type: personal } SPAN.EmailStyle20 { COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-style-type: personal-reply } .MsoChpDefault { mso-style-type: export-only } DIV.Section1 { page: Section1 } An excellent post Wendee. This is what George and I are saying in our different ways but some, like Gregory are not listening.
   
  I have read and followed ID for over a decade and got fairly close to them. Sadly if you are not 101% with them you are against them.
   
  I wonder if ID is trying to compete with YEC for the damage they do to Christ's cause.
   
  It is as simple as that.
   
  Michael
    ----- Original Message -----
  From: WENDEE HOLTCAMP
  To: 'Gregory Arago'
  Cc: asa@calvin.edu
  Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 5:35 AM
  Subject: RE: [asa] Theological Naturalism - 'The Nature of God' = Naturalism
  

    Well I’ve seen stats (the ARIS study – have you seen that) that shows these groups have increased between 1990 and 2001 – evangelical Christians, people with no religion, and nondenominational Christians. This is evidence to me that the divide is indeed widening. I can’t definitively show that the cause is ID but I am around many evo biologists and I can assure you that more scientists than ever before are angry and frustrated at Christians – because of ID, which is now not only affecting the public view of evolution and science but even affecting their ability to get funding (Douglas Futuyma).
  http://www.gc.cuny.edu/faculty/research_studies/aris.pdf
  Wendee
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Wendee Holtcamp * Freelance Writer * Photographer * Bohemian
                  http://www.wendeeholtcamp.com
Bohemian Adventures Blog * http://bohemianadventures.blogspot.com
  The Fish Wars: A Christian Evolutionist http://thefishwars.blogspot.com
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Online Writing Course! Starting Aug 4. Sign Up Online!
   
    From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Gregory Arago
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 11:28 PM
To: WENDEE HOLTCAMP
Cc: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: RE: [asa] Theological Naturalism - 'The Nature of God' = Naturalism

   
    This may be true that the IDM has lost many people from the Christian faith or at least confused them, but at this point it is no more than an unverified belief, a feeling so to speak. I've said for a few years already that ID is a transition theory that will ultimately give way to something more significant. Actually, I don't even think the IDM has stimulated more scientific research, perhaps only in studying the Movement rather than in the natural sciences laboratories. If it had come up with a serious research programme in the past 14 years (since the Pajaro meeting in 1993) then surely we all would have heard about it by now. May your sadness be tempered by hope for the future.

    G.

       
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Received on Wed Jul 25 12:00:26 2007