RE: [asa] What causes students to move from faith?

George,

1s, There is no disagreement here. The same is done in stellar evolution
where one studies many stars and so determines the typical lifespan of a
generic star. However, the description of the whole history of the
occurrence of life on earth is a different matter. There is no average
that one can take over observed occurrences of life elsewhere. For
instance, whether cosmology is a science or not was an issue raised by
Bondi in his book Cosmology.

2d, Paleontologists and forensic scientists can do experiments; there is
no problem with that. Who does the repeatable experiments is not
relevant.

3d, One is referring here to a division a labor. Paleontologists want to
reconstruct history according to extant data and results from the
experimental sciences. That is all I am saying and I believe that it is
obvious. It seems that people read what I write and imagine that I have
some ulterior motive for saying what I say!

4th, There are aspects of astrophysics that are historical like the
origin of galaxies, stars, etc. In fact, astrophysics is like making a
sandwich with stuff that experimental scientists make available to them.

I do pay attention and very much appreciate your posts.

Moorad

-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of George Murphy
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 11:09 AM
To: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] What causes students to move from faith?

Presumably you mean that the "historical sciences" such as paleontology
are
more like forensic science than physics, but the analogy is not that
clear.

1st, paleontologists are not concerned just with the development of one
organisms whose fossil they've found but with the development of entire
species or even higher taxa. Thus much of the contingency in what they
study is averaged out.

2d, when you say that forensic scientists use "the results of
experiments
done by chemists &c" the implication is that they don't do experiments
themselves - & by implication that paleontologists don't. But this is
misleading. Forensic scientists do experiments (on decay of animal
carcasses e.g.) & criminals do lots of other experiments for them. & if

you'll excuse a misleading personification, "Nature" has done many
experiments for paleontologists, the results being all the fossils that
are
found &c. Of course the controls aren't as precise as they'd be if
scientists could arrange those experiments themselves but the number of
fossils formed under all different conditions makes that a relatively
small
problem.

3d, Paleontologists of course make use of more basic sciences such as
physics - but so do chemists & biologists. Different branches of
science
are at different levels in that sense but the distinction there is not
between "operational science" (or whatever you wish to call them) &
"historical" ones.

4th, the questionable character of a sharp distinction between physics &

"historical sciences" becomes obvious when you realize that astrophysics
is
an "historical science." Everything I've said above about paleontology
can
be said, mutatis mutandis, for astrophysics.

Moorad, you keep trying to make this distinction on the list & every
time
you do I or someone else demonstrates that it doesn't work, but a couple
of
weeks later you say the same kind of thing. Are you paying any
attention to
what we're saying?

Shalom
George
http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alexanian, Moorad" <alexanian@uncw.edu>
To: "Michael Roberts" <michael.andrea.r@ukonline.co.uk>; "Ted Davis"
<tdavis@messiah.edu>; <asa@calvin.edu>; "James Mahaffy"
<Mahaffy@dordt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 9:44 AM
Subject: RE: [asa] What causes students to move from faith?

> Can you tell the difference between a physicist and a forensic
scientist?
> The former studies Nature experimentally and creates laws that
summarize
> the result of all the experimental data. The latter finds out if O. J.

> Simpson did it or not using results of experiments done by chemists,
> physicists, biologists, etc. Do you now see the difference?
>
>
> Moorad
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Michael Roberts [mailto:michael.andrea.r@ukonline.co.uk]
> Sent: Thu 9/7/2006 2:25 AM
> To: Alexanian, Moorad; Ted Davis; asa@calvin.edu; James Mahaffy
> Subject: Re: [asa] What causes students to move from faith?
>
>
>
> Please learn a little bit more about historical science before
repeating
> your previous errors on the subject
>
> Michael
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alexanian, Moorad" <alexanian@uncw.edu>
> To: "Ted Davis" <tdavis@messiah.edu>; <asa@calvin.edu>; "James
Mahaffy"
> <Mahaffy@dordt.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 1:32 AM
> Subject: RE: [asa] What causes students to move from faith?
>
>
>> The laws of Nature that are based on experimental science are
>> generalizations of historical propositions, viz., data obtained from
>> repeatable experiments. Historical sciences rely on results obtained
in
>> the experimental sciences, thus the use of the word science in
historical
>> science, but deal with a single, unique event. One is not
characterizing
>> one kind as being more or less legitimate than the other but the
>> distinction must be made to shed light in the so-called war between
>> science and religion.
>>
>> Moorad
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: Ted Davis [mailto:tdavis@messiah.edu]
>> Sent: Wed 9/6/2006 5:50 PM
>> To: asa@calvin.edu; James Mahaffy; Alexanian, Moorad
>> Subject: RE: [asa] What causes students to move from faith?
>>
>>
>>
>>>>> "Alexanian, Moorad" <alexanian@uncw.edu> 09/06/06 4:07 PM
>>>writes:
>> Experimental science has nothing to say regarding any particular
>> historical event.
>>
>> Ted responds:
>> Not exactly. True, experimental science can't rule in or out
something
>> like the resurrection or the virgin birth. Those events, if they
>> happened
>> (as I believe they did), are forever beyond the realm of scientific
>> confirmation or refutation since we can't rerun the history itself
and
>> subject the phenomena to scientific study.
>>
>> However--and this is a very important however--the YECs and some
(perhaps
>> many, I'm not yet clear on this) IDs make much hay about the very
>> distinction you are using. In their view, the historical sciences
(such
>> as
>> geology, cosmology, evolutionary biology) do not have status as
>> legitimate
>> sciences, or if they have some legitimacy it is quite small relative
to
>> experimental sciences. This particular move, in fact, is perhaps the

>> most
>> important way in which they keep Galileo's approach to the Bible (in
>> relation to modern astronomy) out of the garden of Eden. I recently
>> completed an unpublished essay with almost exactly that title
(Galileo
>> and
>> the Garden of Eden).
>>
>> One could say a great deal more about this. But I'll add only this.
>> Experimental science *does* have something to say about some
historical
>> events, perhaps even a whole lot of them. I offer the following
example.
>> We know experimentally/empirically (I fudge the difference here) that
>> Greenland has not been completely submered under water in the past
>> 100,000+
>> years. We know this from evidence buried in ice cores from various
parts
>> of
>> that continent. I call this an experimental/empirical claim, even
though
>> it
>> has an historical component. We have a continuous record buried in
the
>> ice,
>> and it has no evidence of a massive flood. THus, we can conclude
that
>> those
>> who interpret Genesis to require a worldwide flood submerging all of
the
>> land a few thousand years ago cannot be right. That particular
>> interpretation of world/biblical history is wrong.
>>
>> Ted
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
>
>
>
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Received on Thu Sep 7 15:13:21 2006