Re: The wee people

Message"The brain mass for LB1, calculated from its volume26, is 433.2 g; this gives an encephalization quotient (EQ) range of 2.5-4.6, which compares with 5.8-8.1 for H. sapiens, "

But as you said, this EQ is lower than that of dolphins.

If you look at dolphin brains vs human, you will notice that the dolphin has enlargements in the temporal-parietal areas, where human brains have enlargements in frontal areas. This seems clear that the dolphin brain is enlarged in this area for echolocution, which is localized in the temporal-parietal areas. And the frontal lobes are for, for the lack of a better term, forsight.

So, are we going to localize spirituality to frontal lobes?

From what you sited the EQ of LB1 is less than dolphins. So is the fact that they (the wee people) act like us merely because their encephalization is more frontal and dolphin encephalization is temporal? If the LB1 brains have a EQ that is less than dolphins, why cant we consider them "fancy animals"?

I am not sure that comparing this to children that have had a hemispherectomy is valid. In that procedure they are not removing the sub-tentorial stuctures that are responsible for autonomic function and the like. The reason that encephalization quotient is a valid concept is that there are brain functions that are basic, that require larger brains for larger bodies, that part of the brain remains in these procedures.

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Glenn Morton
  To: 'jack syme' ; asa@calvin.edu
  Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2004 9:11 PM
  Subject: RE: The wee people

    -----Original Message-----
    From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of jack syme
    Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 10:00 PM
    To: Glenn Morton; asa@calvin.edu
    Subject: Re: The wee people

    I want to consider option 2 for a moment. The other options altogether raise a question about whether or not we can reconcile Christianity, at least literal biblical Christianity with scientific evidence of humanid history. And, as quoted above, if this undermines the historicity of the bible, then the entire Christian construct falls "like a deck of cards"

    So, a valid interpretation would be that there is no "spirituality" and there is nothing beyond they physical realm.

    In that case your second choice would be correct, but of course that would apply to us as well.

    In that scenario, behavior of a "spiritual" nature, is nothing more than an epiphenomenon of a high EQ. And we should probably expect to see such behavior in cetaceans since their EQ is not vastly different from ours. I guess this could be the case.

    But, it seems that Glenn is making an asumption that "spiritual" behavior is something that is derived beyond the physical realm, it is more than just the complexity of brain structures. And if it is the case that there is a spiritual reality, then Christianity remains viable at least.

    So Glenn what do you think? Is this "spiritually aware" behavior merely a function of relative brain size, or is there something else to this?
    [Glenn Morton]
    [Glenn Morton] : That is an excellent question and it gets right to the heart of why I think we christians absolutely have to have some connection to reality. I believe that spiritual behavior is from beyond the physical. I can't prove it. But if there is nothing in nature beyond the material, then we are wasting our time on any spiritual things. But it seems to me that the de-mytholizing of the Scriptures(the rejection of the talking snake, rejecting the creation accounts as having anything real to say about a real creation, moves the battle far to the side of those who think religion is an epiphenomenon.

    If consciousness and spirituality are mere epiphenomenon, then we will eventually make computers conscious in the sense that we are, once we have complex neural net computers. And to me, that would be the final death knell for metaphysics, religion and Christianity. To me, the only way with the Liang Bua people to avoid having to say that spirituality is an epiphenomenon is to have their spirituality derivative from past ancestors--the same ancestors we have. Otherwise we have to explain why those who seem to have separately descended from H. erectus also have these traits.

    It is also a bit amazing and very sad that very few Christian apologetical schemes were forward looking enough to take advantage of this discovery. It seems that our apologetical withdrawal from reality (the YEC denial of science and the Liberal denial of historicity in the Genesis account) makes us like flotsam and jetsam on the sea of discovery, being tossed about because we don't do any forward thinking.

    As to whale encephalization, it is vastly different from ours. This is a list I found on the net:

    Man 7.44
    Dolphin 5.31
    Chimpanzee 2.49
    Rhesus Monkey 2.09
    Elephant 1.87
    Whale 1.76
    Dog 1.17
    Cat 1.00
    Horse 0.86
    Sheep 0.81
    Mouse 0.50
    Rat 0.40
    Rabbit 0.40

    Here is what the article in nature says about the EQ of Liang Bua

    "The brain mass for LB1, calculated from its volume26, is 433.2 g; this gives an encephalization quotient (EQ) range of 2.5-4.6, which compares with 5.8-8.1 for H. sapiens, 3.3-4.4 for H. erectus/ergaster and 3.6-4.3 for H. habilis, and overlaps with the australopithecine range of variation." P. Brown et al, "A New Small Bodied Hominin from the late Pleistocene of Flores, Indonesia," Nature 431(2004): 1060

    We know that some of those children who have had half their brain removed and who are normally intelligent have EQs of around 4, so from at least 4 on, it is possible to have an intelligent being.
Received on Sat, 30 Oct 2004 21:47:45 -0400