RE: The wee people

-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of jack syme
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 10:00 PM
To: Glenn Morton; asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: The wee people

I want to consider option 2 for a moment. The other options altogether
raise a question about whether or not we can reconcile Christianity, at
least literal biblical Christianity with scientific evidence of humanid
history. And, as quoted above, if this undermines the historicity of
the bible, then the entire Christian construct falls "like a deck of
cards"
 
So, a valid interpretation would be that there is no "spirituality" and
there is nothing beyond they physical realm.
 
In that case your second choice would be correct, but of course that
would apply to us as well.
 
In that scenario, behavior of a "spiritual" nature, is nothing more than
an epiphenomenon of a high EQ. And we should probably expect to see
such behavior in cetaceans since their EQ is not vastly different from
ours. I guess this could be the case.
 
But, it seems that Glenn is making an asumption that "spiritual"
behavior is something that is derived beyond the physical realm, it is
more than just the complexity of brain structures. And if it is the
case that there is a spiritual reality, then Christianity remains viable
at least.
 
So Glenn what do you think? Is this "spiritually aware" behavior merely
a function of relative brain size, or is there something else to this?
[Glenn Morton]
[Glenn Morton] : That is an excellent question and it gets right to the
heart of why I think we christians absolutely have to have some
connection to reality. I believe that spiritual behavior is from beyond
the physical. I can't prove it. But if there is nothing in nature
beyond the material, then we are wasting our time on any spiritual
things. But it seems to me that the de-mytholizing of the
Scriptures(the rejection of the talking snake, rejecting the creation
accounts as having anything real to say about a real creation, moves the
battle far to the side of those who think religion is an epiphenomenon.
 
If consciousness and spirituality are mere epiphenomenon, then we will
eventually make computers conscious in the sense that we are, once we
have complex neural net computers. And to me, that would be the final
death knell for metaphysics, religion and Christianity. To me, the
only way with the Liang Bua people to avoid having to say that
spirituality is an epiphenomenon is to have their spirituality
derivative from past ancestors--the same ancestors we have. Otherwise
we have to explain why those who seem to have separately descended from
H. erectus also have these traits.
 
It is also a bit amazing and very sad that very few Christian
apologetical schemes were forward looking enough to take advantage of
this discovery. It seems that our apologetical withdrawal from reality
(the YEC denial of science and the Liberal denial of historicity in the
Genesis account) makes us like flotsam and jetsam on the sea of
discovery, being tossed about because we don't do any forward thinking.
 
As to whale encephalization, it is vastly different from ours. This is a
list I found on the net:
 
Man 7.44
Dolphin 5.31
Chimpanzee 2.49
Rhesus Monkey 2.09
Elephant 1.87
Whale 1.76
Dog 1.17
Cat 1.00
Horse 0.86
Sheep 0.81
Mouse 0.50
Rat 0.40
Rabbit 0.40

 
Here is what the article in nature says about the EQ of Liang Bua
 
"The brain mass for LB1, calculated from its volume26, is 433.2 g; this
gives an encephalization quotient (EQ) range of 2.5-4.6, which compares
with 5.8-8.1 for H. sapiens, 3.3-4.4 for H. erectus/ergaster and 3.6-4.3
for H. habilis, and overlaps with the australopithecine range of
variation." P. Brown et al, "A New Small Bodied Hominin from the late
Pleistocene of Flores, Indonesia," Nature 431(2004): 1060

 
We know that some of those children who have had half their brain
removed and who are normally intelligent have EQs of around 4, so from
at least 4 on, it is possible to have an intelligent being.
 
 
 
Received on Sat Oct 30 21:12:51 2004