Re: RE: Quiz: What 2 verses in N.T. say if you do not "believe," you are "condemn

"Alexanian, Moorad" <alexanian@uncw.edu> writes:
>I am no biblical scholar. However, on the issue of faith vs. work, I come
>entirely on the side of faith. "Would not God find this out? For He
>knows the secrets of the heart." Ps. 44:21. God knows the nature of our
>faith. However, who is to know and judge our works? God is no exam-giver,
>what would the passing grade be? It seems to me that man is the one
>that would emphasize works in order to judge over other men---rule over
>other man like organized church does. Therefore, to say that it was a
>creation of the church to base our eternal abode on the question of faith
>and not works seems far-fetched.
>Moorad

ED: You've certainly convinced yourself, and you didn't even have to pick
up a college textbook (such as Bart Ehrman's third edition, THE NEW
TESTAMENT), and study the historical questions, what Jews believed back
then, or what the most likely order was for the writing of the Gospels,
but just invented your own explanation. Neat. It's simple and works for
you.

"We are all greater artists than we realize." -- F. Nietzsche
"A good way to tell if a curse has been put on you is if, when you open a
box of toothpicks, they fly out and stab you in the face."

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>From: ed babinski [mailto:ed.babinski@furman.edu]
>Sent: Mon 10/18/2004 5:12 PM
>To: George Murphy
>Cc: Alexanian, Moorad; jwburgeson@juno.com; grayt@lamar.colostate.edu;
>asa@calvin.edu; rogero@saintjoe.edu
>Subject: Quiz: What 2 verses in N.T. say if you do not "believe," you are
>"condemned?"
>
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>
>Pertinent question for Moorad and George, What two verses in the GOSPELS
>say that if you do not "believe," you are "condemned?" And are they early
>or late verses in the Jesus tradition, historically speaking?
>
>I ask this because in the earliest three Gospels, the synoptic Gospels,
>Jesus seems focused on works rather than belief. For instance Jesus is
>asked a number of times in broad daylight in front of a crowd, "How can I
>gain eternal life?" and is also asked "how to pray," and in neither case
>does Jesus say that you must be born again and "believe" certain things,
>rather he repeats to his listeners first and foremost, "obey the
>commandments," and, pray like this, "Father, forgive us our trespasses, AS
>WE FORGIVE those who trespass against us." Very direct and simple, do this
>and do that, and you will gain eternal life and forgiveness from God. In
>Matthew's "sermon on the mount" the stress is again on DOING, on WORKS,
>7:12 "So in everything, DO to others what you would have them DO to you,
>for this SUMS UP the Law and the Prophets," and the sermon ends, 7:21 "Not
>everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven,
>but only he who DOES the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will
>say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and
>in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will
>tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
>24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into
>practice [DOES them] is like a wise man who built his house on the rock."
>And in the parable of the sheep and goats being separated (in Matthew)
>again it is on the basis of "works," yet again, what you "do" not what you
>"believe," after all the "demons believe and tremble," belief isn't
>depicted as what's most important. Sounds quite straighforward. In fact,
>in the synoptic Gospels the word "salvation" only occurs one time, when a
>man DOES something, he gives back the money he stole as a tax collector,
>and Jesus says, "This day has SALVATION come to this house." In the
>synoptics Jesus even stresses that things said against him are
>forgiveable, and he asks why someone would call him "good teacher," and,
>in Luke when Jesus is crucified next to a thief, he takes the theif to
>paradise, though the thief doesn't have a particular belief about Jesus,
>he just calls him a "man," a "man who has done nothing amiss [nothing to
>deserve being crucified]."
>
>So the three earliest Gospels, the synoptic Gospels, stress "works," and
>"doing," but only LATER did two verses find there way into the Gospel
>story that say, "if you do no believe, you are condemned." The first such
>verse is found in the notorious late addition to Mark, the last chapter
>that also mentions "ye shall take up serpents" as a "sign," Mark 16:16:
>"Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever
>believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not BELIEVE will
>be CONDEMNED. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my
>name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they
>will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison,
>it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people,
>and they will get well."
>
>So that line ("Whoever does not BELIEVE will be CONDEMNED") is a LATE
>addition, most probably a creation of the church, not a word of the
>resurrected Jesus.
>The other place such a verse appears is in another late source, the last
>written Gospel, the non-synoptic Gospel, John. It appears in a story
>about a secret nighttime visit of Nicodemus to Jesus, not in broad
>daylight, not in front of crowds, where the secret knowledge about the
>necessity of being "born again" is delivered. 3:16 "For God so loved the
>world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever BELIEVES in him
>shall not perish but have eternal life... 18Whoever BELIEVES in him is not
>condemned, but whoever does NOT BELIEVE stands CONDEMNED ALREADY because
>he has NOT BELIEVED in the name of God's one and only Son."
>Interestingly the beliefs of the author of this late Gospel are also
>apparent in the prologue, and in the first two chapters where the apostles
>are said to have met Jesus and immediately one of them knew he was "the
>Christ, the Messiah," and also in the fact that only in this late Gospel
>is the Baptist depicted as pointing to Jesus and saying, "Behold the Lamb
>of God who Takes Away the Sins of the World." In other words, the fourth
>Gospel is a late theological creation, the church putting words into the
>mouths of John the Baptist and Jesus, and reversing the stress that the
>previous three Gospels had placed on works, on doing, on being forgiven by
>God when we forgave others.
>Cheers,
>Ed
>
>
>
>"George Murphy" <gmurphy@raex.com> writes:
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Alexanian, Moorad" <alexanian@uncw.edu>
>>To: <jwburgeson@juno.com>; <grayt@lamar.colostate.edu>
>>Cc: <asa@calvin.edu>
>>Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 12:26 PM
>>Subject: RE: missing communication: Schroedinger and abortion
>>
>>
>>> "He who is not with me is against me; and he who does not gather with
>>me
>>> scatters. " Matt. 12:30. Christ Himself left no middle ground!
>>
>>"But Jesus said to him, 'Do not stop him; for whoever is not against you
>>is
>>for you.'" Lk.9:50
>>
>>Shalom
>>George
>>http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/
>>
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Received on Mon Oct 18 20:09:57 2004