From: George Murphy (gmurphy@raex.com)
Date: Fri Apr 18 2003 - 18:26:09 EDT
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "George Murphy" <gmurphy@raex.com>
> To: "Vernon Jenkins" <vernon.jenkins@virgin.net>
> Cc: "Michael Roberts" <michael.andrea.r@ukonline.co.uk>;
> <asa@calvin.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 3:26 AM
> Subject: Re: The power of ten
>
> > Vernon Jenkins wrote:.........................
> > > 4. At the time of John's writing, two systems (in which all
> letters assumed
> > > a double identity as numerals) would have been in common usage,
> viz the
> > > Hebrew and the Greek. It would therefore have followed that the
> original
> > > documents upon which all our Bible translations are based would,
> in God's
> > > wisdom, have been as much sets of numbers as life-giving
> scriptures.
> >
> > Not exactly. The letters of the human languages in which the
> biblical documents
> > were written were used to designate numbers by human beings & this
> provided a natural
> > way (_gematria_), & one comprehensible to people of the 1st century,
> for the author of
> > Revelation to encode a particular name in one verse. But as I said
> originally, this in
> > no way ensures that any additional revelation is to be obtained by
> applying the process
> > of gemetria to other words of scripture.
> >
>
> But you would surely agree that those who had a mind to might fairly
> read these words as numbers.
Sure, but that says nothing about the intentions of the human authors or of the
Holy Spirit.
> > > 5. So, to return to the matter of the riddle, we have to question
> its direct
> > > interpretation, for that would lead inevitably either to a
> seemingly
> > > purposeless 'witch-hunt', or else a realisation of the obvious
> after the
> > > beast had assumed power. But if not this, what, then, can be its
> true
> > > purpose?
> >
> > It had already assumed power. The name undoubdtedly refers to
> claims of the
> > Roman imperium to divine authority & is probably _kaisar theos_ in
> Greek or _nrw [or
> > nrwn] qsr_ in Hebrew.
> >
>
> But if, as you believe, the beast had already assumed power in John's
> day, what was the purpose of Rev.13:18? Where was the promised
> 'wisdom', and where the 'overcoming' of the number of his name?
At least one purpose for the original recipients was to inform and warn them of
the true character of some of the imperial claims. It still serves today to warn us
against similar phenomena - cf. Aquinas, "In all tyrants Antichrist lies hidden." & the
powers of evil are to be overcome, as always (for Christians) "by the blood of the
Lamb."
> > > 6. Because the use of gematria (ie the reading of words as
> numbers) was
> > > implicit in the process of identifying the beast, we infer that it
> is - in
> > > this context, at least - a divinely-sanctioned procedure.
> >
> > It is "divinely sanctioned" in Rev.13:18 because we're explicitly
> told so there.
> > We are not told this for any other words of scripture. Besides,
> what we're told in this
> > verse is the _opposite_ of what you're trying to do. Here we're
> given a number which is
> > used to conceal a name. You're taking perfetly clear words &
> turning them into numbers.
> >
>
> But you must agree there can be no definitive solution to the riddle,
> for the names of many fancied candidates - both then and since - have
> appeared to meet the requirement. Further, when you refer to my
> reading 'perfectly clear words' as numbers, you appear to speak as a
> literalist.
The suggestions I gave above (not original with me) are only probable. OTOH,
many of the later suggestions are ax-grinding too obvious to be taken seriously.
I am a "literalist" - in the sense that all the letters & words of scripture
must be taken seriously. But that doesn't answer the question of the genre of texts.
> > > 7. But has the same procedure a wider application as a tool of
> biblical
> > > exegesis? While Rev.13:18 has nothing to say about this
> possibility, I
> > > believe the favourable outcomes obtained by applying it to the
> Greek form of
> > > the Lord's name and the Hebrew of the Bible's first verse must be
> considered
> > > decisive. Thus, we find the letters forming the word 'Jesus' have
> a combined
> > > value of 888 (as opposed to the 666 of the Antichrist); the number
> 296 being
> > > a factor of both 'Jesus' and 'Christ'; the same number appearing
> as 7th word
> > > of Genesis 1:1 ('...the earth.'); 666 appearing three times in a
> geometrical
> > > representation of this first verse with its outline of 6.6.6, and
> so on.
> > >
> > > 8. The numbers indelibly associated with the Hebrew words of the
> OT and the
> > > Greek of the NT appear to have a complementary and precious
> message to bring
> > > to an increasingly apostate world, viz God is; He is exceedingly
> able; and
> > > His Word, undoubtedly true.
> >
> > This adds nothing at all to the clear and unambiguous words of
> scripture.
> >
>
> But whereas the words of the early chapters of Genesis are, for me,
> 'clear and unambiguous', they surely create problems for one of your
> persuasion. Perhaps the numbers are to help us understand that He
> really means what He has said!
The early chapters of Genesis make clear theological statements. They need not
be read as scientific or historical narrative to be true.
>
> > In sum, I see nothing here to change my original statement.
>
> [which was: From the fact that the writer of Revelation tells readers
> to "calculate
> the number of the beast" it does not remotely follow that there is any
> biblical authority
> for trying to get any theological result by "calculating" any other
> words
> of scripture.]
>
> George, you obviously missed the significance of my '...and so on.'
> from #7 above. The following is an extract from Peter's posting of 22
> Feb last:
I don't think it has the significance that you do.
I doubt that further discussion will get us anywhere. I simply don't think that
the clear use of gematria in one verse of the Bible authorizes its use in other texts.
Shalom,
George
George L. Murphy
gmurphy@raex.com
http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/
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