At 11:10 AM 2/29/00 -0500, Dick Fischer wrote:
>Hi Glenn, you wrote:
>
>>Exactly where do you derive that eastward is to be measured from the Sinai?
>
>Well, the Mediterranean basin is only east of the Atlantic Ocean. Are you
>suggesting that the writer of Genesis was using an oceanic reference point?
I noticed that you failed to answer my question. Where do you read that it
is east from Sinai in the Bible?
The Bible doesn't say Eden was in the east, it says, "The LORD God planted
a garden eastward in Eden,"
The garden was in the eastern part of Eden. Now the location of the land
called Eden is what is at dispute. No where in my bible nor any of the
translations I checked does it say "Eden is in the east"
ASV: "And Jehovah God planted a garden eastward, in Eden"
NIV: "Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden;"
KJ: "And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden"
NKJ: "The LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden,"
NOTICE THAT THIS CAN BE INTERPRETED AS EASTWARD IN EDEN. THe commas are not
in the original
>
>>>Genesis places the
>>>garden of Eden near the junction of the Tigris and Euphrates. So do I.
>>>Glenn places it in the Mediterranean basin.
>
>>At the former junction of the Tigris and Euphrates--Dick you know this.
>
>The Euphrates river would have to flow over two mountain ranges from its
>present source to get to the Mediterranean. The Hiddekel (Tigris)
>originates in the region of Assyria, flowing southeast until it joins the
>Euphrates in southern Mesopotamia at a point that is east of Assyria, just
>as stated in the Bible. The Mediterranean basin is west according to any
>map I have seen. Also, Daniel stood beside the Hiddekel in Daniel 10:4.
>Where would you say he was standing? In Turkey? Greece? That would be a
>long trek for the armies of Persia that the angel talks about in the same
>chapter.
And Dick, how many times have I stated many times, the present topography
is not at all the topography in the past. If you haven't heard, Africa is
moving north, slamming into Europe and Asia. THe Dead Sea rift is and the
uplifts around it are caused by an incipient spreading center AND the
collision of Africa into Asia. The uplift that presently turns the
Euphrates from its southwesterly course where it gets within 100 miles of
the Mediterranean today is the uplift associated with the Dead Sea Rift.
THis rift didn't become emplaced until the Pliocene:
Dating change in Tigris Euphrates river course
"(c) Differential uplift of late Miocene to Recent times is suggested to
have started in the northern Negev after deposition of the Hazeva
Formation. Differential uplift could explain ambiguous data: arching of
some 5 km, but no major vertical throws and horizontal Miocene Hazeva
sediments." ~ Jacob Shahar, "The Syrian Arc System: an Overview,"
Paleogeography, Paleoclimatology, Paleoecology, 112(1994), p. 125-142, p. 132
The flood, as I envision it was late Miocene. So, you have an objection
that doesn't take into account the changes in geology that have occurred
since the time I say the Flood was. And we have discussed this before.
>
>>> Genesis says Adam was created
>>>out of the dust. So do I. Glenn says Adam had natural parents who were
>>>apes.
>
>>Our bodies show numerous similarities to the apes both morphologically and
>>chemically. I would suggest that your view makes God out to be a deceiver
>>who created us to look like the apes, with even broken pseudogenes and all,
>>when we aren't related to them. To me that says bad things about your view
>>of God.
>
>You and I are in full agreement that human beings have brachiators swinging
>on our family tree.
THen exactly why did you act in your statement above as if what I was
suggesting is something that you found unacceptable. It appears to me that
you tailor your objections for maximal political impact rather than for
maximal truth content.
We won't argue about that at all. But what I am
>saying is this. Genesis was written for the children of Israel.
This gets to the heart of what I think is wrong with the way many moderns
treat Genesis. If it was meant for them, then it is irrelevant for us.
[snip]
>>My views are a bit better than your brief characature would lead one to
>>believe.
>
>My brevity was not intended to slight you. My apologies, Glenn. But Burgy
>had expressed a preference for your method of apology over mine. I want to
>see if he is prepared to live with the liabilities.
Then please represent those liabilities correctly. Every view has
liabilities, mine included. But you have a duty, even an obligation, not to
misrepresent those liabilities in pursuit of trying to convince others that
your view should be preferred.
glenn
Foundation, Fall and Flood
Adam, Apes and Anthropology
http://www.flash.net/~mortongr/dmd.htm
Lots of information on creation/evolution
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