Re: ID's exciting, comprehensive, publicly funded scientific research program for the 21st century! (was ID)

From: Keith Littleton (littlejo@vnet.net)
Date: Thu Jun 15 2000 - 22:36:27 EDT

  • Next message: Cliff Lundberg: "Re: macroevolution or macromutations? (was ID)"

    In Re: ID's exciting, comprehensive, publicly funded
    scientific research program for the 21st century! (was ID)

    On Sat Jun 10 2000 - 19:56:59 EDT,
    Stephen E. Jones (sejones@iinet.net.au) wrote:

    >Reflectorites
    >On Tue, 6 Jun 2000 09:44:56 -0700, billwald@juno.com wrote:
    >[...]
    >SJ>to be a split in science, with funding being taken off
    >>>materialists and granted to IDers.
    >
    >BW>Funding to do what? Do a computer search of junk DNA
    >to see if somehow the first 3 chapters of Genesis is
    >encoded?
    >[...]
    >I thank Bill for this question, which gives me the
    >opportunity to lay out what I see as ID's exciting,
    >comprehensive, publicly funded scientific research
    >program for the 21st century! I would state however
    >that I am not among the leadership of the ID movement,
    >so the above is just my personal vision for the ID
    >movement:
    >
    >Materialistic-naturalistic science's (NS) basic
    >assumption is that prior to the advent of humans
    >there were only unintelligent causes.

    Does the chief designer have to be intelligent being at
    all? Long before intelligent design was formulated people
    proposed "creative forces" being behind evolution or the
    development of life. These "creative forces" are not a
    well-defined being, e.g. God, but indefinable and
    unnamable basis of all being. A geologist friend, noting
    how the vast majority of intelligent design proponents
    inevitably advocate our God as being the chief designer
    behind intelligent design, see the Dembski quote at the
    end of the article as an example he gave me, half
    jokingly suggest that he should push his own version of
    "intelligent design" in which it is simply an expression
    of the Tao.

    I find it interesting how the chief designer who is
    responsible for intelligent design can be argued
    to be any of a number of beings, e.g. Krishna,
    Yahweh, God, Allah, and creative forces, e.g. the
    Tao, yet Johnson already knows that our Christian
    God is the chief designer. Go see, "Re: The
    Wedge of Truth : Splitting the Foundations of
    Naturalism by Phillip E. Johnson" in which the
    following part of a review is quoted:

       "In the end, Johnson prophetically concludes
       that the walls of naturalism will fall and
       that the Christian gospel must play a vital
       role in building a new foundation for thinking
       --not just about science and religion but about
       everything that gives human life hope and meaning."

    Does Johnson have scientific proof that the chief
    designer is our Christian God? I imagine that Muslims,
    Jews, Taoists, Buddhists, and people of other religions
    have something also pertinent to say about the role
    that their religions have building this new foundation
    for thinking. Or are non-Christians excluded from
    Johnson's grand scheme of re-educating the world
    to give "human life hope and meaning?"

    The one that bothers me, is that intelligent design
    seems to assume that biological systems have intelligent
    design, while non-biological systems are not expected
    to show intelligent design. If intelligent design
    is real, then both non-biological and biological
    systems should both show evidence of detectable
    intelligent design. A person should find intelligent
    design in sequence stratigraphy and plate tectonics,
    as well as DNA and finch beaks. The other explanation
    is that Old Earth creationists find their religious
    beliefs and morally threatened by evolution, but
    not by billion year old Earth and plate tectonics.
    Thus, they feel a need to attack evolution, but
    not geology.

    >ID's basic assumption is that prior to the advent of
    >humans: 1) there were *both* unintelligent and
    >intelligent causes; and 2) the latter are, at least
    >in principle, empirically detectable.

    If intelligent design is more than a means of attacking
    evolution, than it should be applicable to nonbiological
    systems, not just the origin of the universe, as well as
    biological systems. A should person be able to detect
    intelligent design in geological systems, as well as
    biological systems. One difference between geology and
    biology, is that either side of the debate cannot use
    the jargon and mathematics of information theory
    to create scientific-sounding technobabble.

    (How many non-specialists actually understand any of the
    information theory arguments being debated? How many
    really care, just as long as they have specialists and
    scientific-sounding arguments which justify what they
    believe to true, both anti-evolutionist and evolutionist,
    is true and the are being "scientific" in their beliefs?)

    In something as comprehensive of the intelligent design
    of the universe, why should it be only detectable in
    biological systems?

    >Therefore, ID's research program will be to look for
    >emprical evidence of intelligent causation prior to
    >~100 kya. The obvious place to look is where
    >NS is having major problems with explaining the
    >evidence.

    Again, the age shouldn't matter. In fact, the
    younger the age the more data and chronological
    control that a person has which constrains the
    data. For example, the quality and quantity
    of information available for evolutionary events
    in the Wisconsinan Stage of the Pleistocene is
    many orders of magnitude greater than for the
    Cambrian Explosion. In case of the latter, it
    would a lot harder to falsify intelligent design.
    because the data is far more ambiguous and
    fragmentary than in the former. The farther
    a person looks back in time, the easier it is going
    to explain a particular theory in terms of the
    available data and the harder it will be to falsify
    it or any other theory conclusively. For example,
    look at the debate about a meteorite impact causing
    the Permian extinction versus the debate about the
    cause of the extinction at the end of the Cretaceous
    and the sketchy data available about the former
    and the abundance of data about the latter.

    If one wanted to detect intelligent design, it
    seems like Cenozoic foraminifera would be better
    at testing it than soft-bodied Cambrian faunas.
    In fact, the younger the time period, the better
    the database to work from and the better one can
    falsify a hypothesis. This might be the very
    reason that intelligent design people concentrate
    in the Cambrian and Precambrian. In the younger
    strata, there might be too many embarrassing facts
    that can falsify something that they want to
    be able to argue is true.

    [SIDE NOTE: A person can explain the Cambrian biomeres
    in same way that the proponents of intelligent design
    explain Cambrian Explosion. In the biomeres, fully
    developed families of trilobite appear out of nowhere
    at each extinction event without any antecedents. I
    have yet to read of any person attributing that to the
    cause. Geogres Cuvier likely would had he known about
    them. Georges Cuvier would also be very happy with how
    the proponents of intelligent design interpret the
    Cambrian Explosion. :-) ]

    ... text deleted ...

    Yours

    Keith Littleton
    littlejo@vnet.net
    New Orleans, LA

      "Information-the information that God speaks to
      create the world, the information that continually
      proceeds from God in sustaining the world and acting
      in it, and the information that passes between God's
      creatures-this is the bridge that connects transcendence
      and immanence. All of this information is mediated
      through the divine Logos, who is before all things and
      by whom all things consist (Colossians 1:17). The
      crucial breakthrough of the intelligent design
      movement has been to show that this great theological
      truth-that God acts in the world by dispersing
      information-also has scientific content. All
      information, whether divinely inputted or transmitted
      between creatures, is in principle capable of being
      detected via the complexity-specification criterion.
      Examples abound:

      The fine-tuning of the universe and irreducibly
      complex biochemical systems are instances of specified
      complexity, and signal information inputted into the
      universe by God at its creation.

      Predictive prophecies in Scripture are instances
      of specified complexity, and signal information
      inputted by God as part of his sovereign activity
      within creation."

    -- "The Act of Creation: Bridging Transcendence and Immanence"
         Access Research Network William A. Dembski Files - William
         A. Dembski, Presented at Millstatt Forum, Strasbourg,
         France, 10 August 1998.
         http://www.arn.org/docs/dembski/wd_actofcreation.htm
       
    evolution@calvin.edu



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