Re: macroevolution or macromutations? (was ID)

From: Richard Wein (rwein@lineone.net)
Date: Sun Jun 11 2000 - 06:24:15 EDT

  • Next message: billwald@juno.com: "Re: evidence and logic"

    Cliff wrote:

    >I would possibly be convinced by some incredibly magical revelation,
    >some big genie in the sky doing fantastic things with a wave of the hand;
    >but I'd probably think I was dreaming. I guess I just have a built-in
    prejudice
    >in favor of naturalistic explanation. ID explanation is more parsimonious
    >and much easier, but it doesn't do anything for me. I like to puzzle out
    >particulars; the one big all-inclusive answer is boring to me.

    In case anyone should think that Cliff is representative of philosophical
    naturalists in having a "built-in prejudice in favor of naturalistic
    explanation", I'd like to point out that I don't share his prejudice. I
    reject the ID explanation precisely because it is *less* parsimonious.

    If there was a designer, then there must have been a *first* designer, and
    that first designer must have (a) evolved by naturalistic means, (b) sprang
    into existence ex nihilo, or (c) existed for all eternity (whatever that
    means).

    (a) still requires a process of naturalistic evolution, and, in the absence
    of evidence to the contrary, it's more parsimonious to assume that evolution
    occurred here on Earth than that it occurred somewhere else and that living
    organisms were then artificially created on Earth. There's no reason for
    scientists to a priori rule out the latter, and it's possible to imagine
    evidence that would make it the more parsimonious theory: for example, we
    might find the remains of an ancient alien civilization, with records of how
    they had created and/or manipulated organisms on Earth.

    The most parsimonious explanation is not simply the one which can be stated
    in fewest words. It's the one which leaves least unexplained. (b) and (c)
    are far from parsimonious, because they leave entirely unexplained that
    which we want to explain--the origin of conscious beings. As far as science
    is concerned, you can't get any more unparsimonious than that, since science
    is all about explaining things. That's why science will never settle for
    such an "explanation". Even if a big genie in the sky made himself known to
    us in a convincing way and claimed to have popped into existence ex nihilo
    one day, I doubt that most scientists would accept that claim, though they
    might well accept his claim to have created life on Earth.

    [...]

    >The point is that this is a mechanism that explains how a sudden increase
    >in the complexity of an organism could occur. Irreducible-complexity
    >arguments depend on the straw man of pure gradualism. If symbionts in
    >an ecosystem can suddenly become one organism, that is a leap in
    >complexity.

    I'm not sure I would call that a sudden leap in complexity. The complexity
    existed already, in two separate organisms. All (!) that happened was that
    two complex entities were combined into one. But you could say this is a
    semantic matter.

    [...]

    >The general model could apply above the cellular level. It's a little weird
    >to think that metazoan organs were once free symbionts, but why not?

    I think "weird" is understating it. It's bizarre! Still, I suppose bizarre
    things do happen. But have you thought out any plausible scenarios for how
    this could have happened in the case of particular organs?

    >It's
    >logically more satisfactory than thinking these complexes evolved
    >gradually.

    Why? What's your objection to gradual evolution of organs? Do you deny that
    *any* complexity can evolve gradually?

    Stephen wrote:
    >>I don't understand Cliff's point. I am able to follow the "logical
    arguments"
    >>that evolutionists make and yet believe that they are "false".

    All of us here who are familiar with Stephen's nonsense know this to be
    untrue. He is *not* able to follow logical arguments!

    Richard Wein (Tich)



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