>>IF CHRISTIAN CHURCHES WON'T APPROVE OF SAME SEX MARRIAGES, WHAT ABOUT
>>SEMI-SAME SEX MARRIAGES?
- Skip Church
----------------
>My opinion: Stupid speculation.
There is nothing speculative about someone born with both a penis (that is
capable of ejaculating) and a vagina (that is capable of taking a penis
inside it, the vagina in this case being located where the scrotum would
have been). It's a proven fact and cases of intersexuality occur more
frequently than you suppose. Why not take a college course on human
sexuality and learn about the types and frequencies of such very real
occurances. And then you will realize that the Bible does not cover every
category of human sexuality, leaving only "speculation" as to how a "Bible
believer" should deal with such categories in the real world.
----------------
>And condemnation has little to do with
>whether marriage is allowed or not. Rather offensive, and incorrect,
choice
>of words.
The Bible had strict categories of what was allowed and what wasn't, like a
man lying with another man had to die. And all animals were made to fit
into certain categories of cud chewing and/or hooved, etc., some being
"clean" the others "unclearn." So things beyond that pale of such
categories would probably be looked upon by ancient categorizers as
"abominations" of one sort or another, and who knows how a person born with
both a penis and a vagina might have been viewed back then?
---------------
>Wonder why he wrote that?
I have no doubt why I wrote what I did, because it was a valid question.
Kathyryn Lindskoog, an evangelical Christian, and author of numerous books
on C.S. Lewis asked a similar question once to a minister friend of hers
who did not even know that such people existed as those which had both a
penis and a vagina. The minister was flabbergassed to see the information
she shared with him about people of intersexuality (there are numerous
types, including people with two x and one y chromosome, men with breasts),
and she had received no answer to her question as to which sex they ought
to be allowed to marry.
---------------
>>HOW 500 GAY MEN MAY HAVE SAVED CHRISTIANITY
- Skip Church
>My response: SO WHAT????? Ever heard of God using evil to further His
plan?
Yes, ever heard of rationalizations to promote your faith in "the God of
the Bible?"
And maybe God used the witch killing verses in the Bible just to see how
many innocent women would be killed during the Middle Ages by both
Catholics and Protestants (Calvin prosecuted witches in Geneva mercilessly
for having sent the plague). And maybe God
used the anti-Jewish sayings in the New Testament and Holy Inquisition, and
Martin Luther's condemnation of the Jews to inspire Europeans with so much
anti-Jewish hatred that a Hitler finally arose in that same Jewish hating
Lutheran nation of Germany. It's all part of God's plans to use evil. Or
maybe God is using the anti-homosexual verses in the Bible to inspire
American televangelists to cry out against a small percentage of people in
America, so that people can have somebody to look down upon and blame
"America's failing families" on, and a scapegoat just so they can raise
lots and lots of money for televangelism. Without the gays and feminists
Pat Robertson wouldn't be half as rich as he is today, and without people
like Pat Robertson, that gay kid probably wouldn't have been crucified on a
fence out west, and other hate crimes against gays might not be as
prevalent as they are.
---------------------
>So whether or not Christianity owes a debt to homosexuals says nothing
about
>whether or not homosexuality is bad.
No, but it's the irony I was pointing out, and the history books I've read
all cite the battle at Thermopalye that followed right after the 500
Spartans lost their lives,
as a major turning point in European history.
----------------------
>Anyway, how do you calculate a debt that's based on pure speculation?
>Perhaps Christianity would've exploded at an incredibly faster rate?
Perhaps, but as things turned out, 500 gay soldiers stood off the Persian
army long enough to the Greeks to gather forces for the battle at
Thermopalyae,
and later, Christianity arose.
As for "calculating debts based on pure speculation," that's
practically the
definition of Christianity. One man is nailed to two boards two thousand
years ago,
and only after that "debt" was paid can God now forgive people for
everything from
masturbation to stealing a goat, and allow them into heaven. Talk about
speculation.
----------------------
>If AIDS is God's punishment to gays for anal intercourse, does that
>mean lung cancer is God's punishment for smoking? Do you plan to
>picket your Aunt Mildred's funeral carrying signs saying "God Hates
>Smokers?"
>Also, if AIDS is God's punishment for sex, why is a little piece of
>rubber so effective in avoiding it? Does that work for all sins
>committed in conjunction with rubber, or just those related to sex?
>Can I, for example, safely worship graven images so long as they're
>made out of rubber?
- Rev. Jim Huber
>My response: HUGE if in the first sentence. Notice, in some cases, it may
>just be the punishment. Who are we to determine whether or not this is the
>case? Also, how can you get from wearing a rubber to worshipping one?
>Again, stupid speculation IMO.
I think we can determine causes and effects in human health via medical
science, we don't
need "Biblical justifications" for any of what we have learned via medical
science.
And there's nothing about worshiping rubbers, it's about making a
graven image out of "rubber." Speaking of "rubber," maybe you should
stretch your mind sometimes with a little more knowledge of medical
science, world history, the diversity of human biology, and then your
appreciation of irony and humor might just begin to kick in. Your daily
Bible readings seem to be stiffening your mind as well as your heart.
-------------------
>>If I read them correctly, the Religious Right seem to be saying that
>>AIDS is "god's punishment" for homosexuals, as well as for babies
>>perverse enough to be born of women raped by hemophiliacs, drug
>>abusers, or Haitian men?
>> Why didn't god give AIDS to Socrates or Plato or Aristotle or
>>Alexander the Great? Or to Shakespeare or Leonardo da Vinci? Did god
>>think their homosexuality was less wicked than that practiced in
>>California and New York today??
>>On the brighter side, this tragic disease has prompted more research
>>into immune processes in twenty months than we have gained in the
>>last twenty years. If and when AIDS is cured homosexuals will be
>>safer than ever before. And where will god's efforts have succeeded
>>then?
- Frank R. Zindler, "AIDS: A Blessing From
God?" Dial-An-Atheist, Greatest Hits from
Ohio
>My response: Ok, who is he reading first of all? Religious right or
radical
>standout Christians who may be misguided and make statements a vast
majority
>of Christians would never make? Notice: he never capitalizes the name of
>God (or is that your transcription?).
His preference, I kept it in for the paragraphs I was citing.
------------------------
>Also, what religious person condemned someone infected w/ HIV other than
homosexual >relations?
It's God doing the "condemning." Read the above again, "God's punishment."
In other words, if you are a religious person who believes that God sent
AIDS to demonstrate how much he hates homosexuality, then He's a lousy shot
when it comes to killing only the homosexual sinners with it. Innocent
babes get killed by it too, and people already suffering other diseases,
like hemophilia, as if god didn't already give the hemophiliacs enough of a
burden to bear.
----------------------
>Next, who is he to determine whether so-and-so is punished more or less
than another. >Perhaps there were lots of different unknown punishments.
Perhaps none. Perhaps
>we're totally off the block trying to guess God's motives for allowing
>various things which humans brought on themselves ultimately (I'm
referring
>to the fall, not individual sins). How does he plan to know what God's
>efforts are?
Of course, why didn't I think of that. There's nothing questionable or
mysterious about God killing babies with AIDs. Just keep focused on the
"mysterious ways of God" and remember to wear rubbers while having sex. Or
as an old arab saying goes, "Believe in God, but remember to tie up your
camel." Believe in God sending AIDS and other venerial diseases to punish
infidelity by both hetero and homo sexuals, but if you wear a rubber, hum,
you kind of foil God's holy plan in sending those diseases.
-----------------------
>Anyway, don't you think if God wanted to punish someone that
>He'd have the power to do that some other way if a cure to HIV/AIDS is
>discovered?
Most of the punishments I see are simply ignorant people doing stupid
things and being punished for their own stupidity. From my studies of
human history, God seems to "punish ignorant people" a helluva lot more
than even the most sinful people. So God must hate ignorant and stupid
people even more than sinners.
------------------------
>>The Bible commands all Christians: "Greet one another with a holy
>>kiss." (1 Cor. 16:20 & 2 Cor. 13:12) "Salute one another with a holy
>>kiss." (Romans 16:16) "Greet one another with a kiss of charity." (1
>>Peter 5:14) "Greet all the brethren with a holy kiss." (1 Thes. 5:26)
>>And, when Paul departed for Palestine "they all wept sore, and fell
>>on Paul's neck and kissed him." (Acts 20:37)
>>Can't you get AIDS like that?
- David Windhorst, "God May Kill You For
Reading This? And I'm a Little Nervous
Myself"
>My response: First of all, don't think so. Second, who cares?
So, if you're so sure you can't get AIDS from kissing, I suppose you are
saying that you'd kiss somebody with AIDS? Even if they had a canker sore,
or a mouth lesion of some sort?
Secondly, isn't Paul COMMANDING Christians to "greet one another with
a holy kiss?" Isn't that a Christian ideal at least? Today's
fundamentalists are such prudes
compared with Paul. Where's their love of what the Bible says and what it
tells them to do? Where's the holy kissers today?
---------------------------
>>If AIDS represents God's condemnation of homosexual behavior, what do
>>measles, mumps, small pox, tuberculosis, and polio represent? God's
>>condemnation of childish behavior? Half the children who were born
>>two hundred years ago never reached the age of eight, due mainly to
>>diseases like those. What did the "flu" epidemic (1918 to 1920) that
>>made half the world sick and killed nearly 40 million people
>>represent? Maybe God was condemning people for touching the same
>>things and breathing the same air? What damnable behavior worthy of
>>death!
- Skip Church
>My response: Nice IF again. And again, who decides whether God uses
ANYTHING
>to condemn ANYTHING?
The Bible thumpers decided that. Maybe you didn't, but a lot of Christians
feel that way about diseases being punishments from "God," must have
something to do with the way those uptight Jews used to think that "God"
sent plagues and diseases. You remember back in the Old Testament where
it's stated lots of times?
-----------------------------
>>AIDS is a dream come true for some Christians who rejoice to see
>>"God's will being done." It even says in Psalm 58:10, "The righteous
>>will rejoice when he sees the vengeance, he will bathe his feet in
>>the [AIDS infected?] blood of the wicked."
>>But if you're tossing out Bible verses how about Proverbs 17:5; 24:17
>>& 25:21, "Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, and let not your
>>heart be glad when he stumbles? If your enemy is hungry, give him
>>bread to eat; and if he is thirsty, give him water to drink? He who
>>rejoices at calamity shall not go unpunished." I leave it to
>>ingenious Bible believers to reconcile such mixed messages from God.
>> - Skip Church
>My response: I leave it to ingenious critics such as Skip to find verses
out
>of context.
The old "out of context" response when verses conflict. So tell me the
context, Mr. Smarty pants. I suppose it will involve downgrading the Psalms
to mere whimsical songs
expressing rages of the moment, that have nothing to do with the ways
people ought to really react all the time. While you upgrade the Proverbs
to something higher than
the psalms. Or maybe you choose to believe whichever suits you at the
moment
depending on how you feel about something. Yeah, give yourself plenty of
slack.
A wise old Scottish Christian who was considered a saint by the folks who
knew him once wrote: "The most zealous defenders of the verbal inspiration
of the Bible admit that there are parts of it of less importance than
others. This is a great admission, because another is involved in it,
namely that we ourselves must be judges of the comparative importance of
these different parts."- Thomas Erskine
-------------------
>I was visiting the capital of "born again" America recently, Colorado
>Springs, Colorado, and saw a skinny effeminate looking guy standing
>on a crowded street corner holding a sign that read, "Help Us Find A
>Cure For AIDS." He had an empty bucket at his feet, labeled,
>"National AIDS Foundation." Then I noticed on the opposite corner, a
>loudly dressed woman with high hair and bright makeup, holding a sign
>that read, "Help SAVE Homosexuals From Their Sin! Give to Christian
>Broadcasting!" and she had a bucket at her feet too. People were
>ignoring the effeminate guy and crossing the street just to toss gobs
>of money in the lady's bucket after which they'd smile to themselves
>or poke a stern look in the direction of the effeminate guy. After
>the sidewalk congestion cleared, I walked up to the guy and said,
>"You should move to a different corner, can't you see what's
>happening? These people are giving heaps of money to Christian
>Broadcasting just because you're standing across the street from that
>lady." And the effeminate guy yelled to the lady across the street,
>"Yoo hoo! Harold! This guy says we've got it all wrong!"
> - Skip Church
>My response: the point?
The lady with the heavy makeup and tall hair is a guy, and two are
working together to get christian gay haters to give money to AIDS
research.
It's a variation of an old Jewish joke in the Medieval ages in which
one poor Jew is begging money from Christian passerbys who keep avoiding
the Jew to walk across the street and fill the alms bucket of a priest
standing on the opposite corner. And one passerby, a fellow Jew, suggests
to the
poor Jew that he get another corner to stand on, no so close to the priest.
And the poor Jew yells over to the priest, "Hey, Mordecai, this guy
thinks we've got it all wrong." (Mordecai being a jewish name)
Maybe you need a diagram next time?
Best, Ed
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Fri Mar 10 2000 - 14:07:15 EST