Glenn
> My friend, Will Provine, tried that one out on me but he did it more
> eloquently. I believe Chrisitanity because I have seen the power of the
> resurrected Lord in my own life.
Chris
Yeah, but that sounds like psychological motivation to me. It's the same
reasoning used by all sorts of people who convince themselves of the "power"
of something (i.e., crystals, astrology, numerology, homeopathy, Reiki,
magnets in one's mattress-covers, etc., etc., etc.).
Glenn
> Whether you want to believe this or not is
> your choice. My interest in the historical and scientific aspects of
> Christianity stem from that. I do insist that the Bible have some basis in
> historical fact as a requirement for belief.
>
Chris
> >I don't want to try here to argue you out of your beliefs in this area,
but
> >you seem so rational (in my view) with respect to scientific issues (at
> >least with respect to evolution) that I can't help but wish that you'd
apply
> >the same fact-oriented intellectual rigor to your religious beliefs
(which I
> >do not think you have done).
Glenn
> You don't know me that well do you?
Chris
No, I don't. That's why I phrased it the way I did, rather than more
positively. For example, I did not say ". . .(which I know you have not
done)."
Glenn
> One of the reasons for the beliefs I
> advocate is that they do maintain historicity for the scriptures and that
> is important to me.
Chris
> >I am not, as you might guess, a fan of Johnson. I think his distortions
of
> >evolutionary theory and fact are too great to be honest (or he's a lot
> >stupider than he appears), and his pretense that non-naturalist views
should
> >be put on an equal footing (with respect to Occam's Razor) as naturalism
> >appeals to some, but it is *not* rational, despite the title of his book
on
> >the topic.
Glenn
> Smart comes in more forms than those you allow. THere is intellectual
smart
> and there is street smart. If you are so naive as to think Johnson is
> street stupid you are truly naive. Johnson has had more influence than you
> and I put together. That takes more smarts than you might imagine. WHile I
> think Johnson is misleading people, you are foolish to think he isn't
> smart.
Chris
I didn't say he wasn't smart. I said that he is either dishonest or stupider
than he appears. I should have added, "at a casual reading." No, I think he
*is* smart. That's why I also think he's dishonest.
Glenn
> He knows what he is doing. I just don't agree with the ethics of it.
Chris
> >I'm not going to develop much respect for Johnson until he starts dealing
> >with such issues honestly, instead of merely trying to convince people
that
> >individual naturalistic theories (some of which *can* be refuted, of
course)
> >are false. This tactic, at best, merely disproves individual, specific
> >naturalistic theories. It does not prove that *any* form of
non-naturalist
> >theory must be true; that burden of proof remains right where it started.
Glenn
> As a Christian that is what bothers me most about the way Christians have
> dealt with this issue. We haven't been honest. And I say this having done
> my share of bad things when I was a YEC. Saying that Well's religion is
> widely known is simply another example. Johnson knows it wasn't widely
known.
>
Chris
> >It's not generally a good idea to try to make facts fit a theory, as you
> >(and Johnson) seem to be doing.
Glenn
> I am curious. Tell me where I am making facts fit a theory. And lets stay
> with the facts here.
Chris
Well, I said "*seem* to be doing." I was well aware that you might *not* be
doing that, or that, at least, if you were, you weren't doing it in the
apparently deliberate and dishonest way that Johnson appears to be doing it.
I meant, in your case, your seeming desire to make the facts fit
Christianity. I *think* that's what I meant; I'm getting very sleepy and I
don't clearly remember what I had in mind at the time I wrote that. I
*definitely* did not mean to suggest (as I can now see it appears to) that
you are dishonest. I apologize for my failure to distinguish between you and
Johnson, especially since I had alrady said that I thought he was dishonest.
Sorry. You appear to me to be *very* honest.
--Chris