On Sun, 16 Aug 1998 22:39:06 -0500, Glenn R. Morton wrote:
GM>Stephen, your math is wrong again
Glenn does not specify where exactly my "math is wrong again", that I can
correct it, in order to falsify his 5.5 mya Mediterranean Flood hypothesis
and earn Glenn's "grateful" thanks:
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On Thu, 13 Aug 1998 22:59:50 -0500, Glenn R. Morton wrote:
[...]
GM>Stephen, if you could provide evidence to falsify my theory I would
>be grateful....
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GM>and so is your geology. As I pointed out, the actual site of the 5.5
>myr connection with the Atlantic was NOT through the present Straight
>of Gibraltar. did you even read what I had >written?
I had indeed read what Glenn had written and in fact responded. Our posts
are still `crossing in the mail.' Sooner or later we will get in sync.
To summarise, Glenn bases his entire theory on a misunderstanding of *one
paragraph* out of a chapter of a *1974* book (which does not even discuss
the filling of the Mediterranean 5.5 mya) as follows:
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On Thu, 13 Aug 1998 22:59:50 -0500, Glenn R. Morton wrote:
[...]
GM>"The Strait of Gibraltar is a recent morphological feature that cuts across
>the structures of the Gibraltar arc, who's similarity on both shorelines
>has recently been established. The differential movements between Iberia
>and Africa since the Jurassic probably did not occur at the present
>location of the Gibraltar strait, but such evidence should be looked for
>farther north or south. Likewise, communication between the Mediterranean
>and the Atlantic in the Messinian could have existed only farther north
>(Gudalquivir) or south (external Rif)." ~ B. Biju-Duval et al, "Geology of
>the Mediterranean Sea Basins, in Creighton A. Burk and Charles L. Drake,
>editors, The Geology of Continental Margins, (New York: Springer-Verlag,
>1974), p. 704.
The authors, Biju-Duval et. al., in the context of "the history of the
present South Balearic and Alboran basins" (p704) are here discussing *two
entirely different things*: 1. "The differential movements between Iberia
and Africa since the Jurassic", and 2. the "communication between the
Mediterranean and the Atlantic in the Messinian."
First, "The differential movements between Iberia and Africa since the
Jurassic". This relates to *"differential movements"* between two
*tectonic plates*, "Iberia" and "Africa", not to *"communication"*
between two *seas* the "Mediterranean and the Atlantic".
Also, the timescale for the "differential movements between Iberia and
Africa" was "since the Jurassic" (ie. 144 mya - Stanley S.M., "Earth and
Life Through Time," 1989, inside cover), whereas the "communication
between the Mediterranean and the Atlantic" was in the Messinian" (ie. 6-5
mya-Stanley S.M., 1989, p608).
Moreover, Stephen Stanley at pages 207 and 210 of his 1989 book "Earth
and Life Through Time," shows where these "differential movements
between Iberia and Africa" were. There was a gap in the Cretaceous Period
(ie. 65 mya) where the Pyrenees are now remnants of which are the
present Bay of Biscay and Gulf of Lion. See map below (best viewed in
a monospaced font):
\
Bay of Biscay /
/\ /Pyrenees
/ \/^^^/\/
/ /Gulf of Lion
|Spain \
\ /
Gudalquivir | ---/
Gibraltar \/ Mediterranean
Rif /-\
/ ----
/ Africa
But Stanley's "20 million years ago" map on page 606 shows the gap *already
closed*. And his maps of 6.0 mya and 5.5 mya show the gap *still closed*.
Indeed, Biju-Duval et. al. give the "Migration of an "Alboran plate,"
squeezing an oceanic area located between Spain and Africa and creating
the Gibraltar arc during the Cenozoic..." (p705), as one of three hypotheses
given to explain the formation of the Western Mediterranean, and this appears
to be what Stanley is referring to as a "microplate" which "moved northward
against Eurasia during Late Cretaceous time" and which "today...represents
the Iberian Peninsula (Spain and Portugal)":
"By the middle of the Mesozoic Era, rifting was concentrated along a ridge
within a deep seaway, the Penninic Ocean, which had only recently begun
to form. The Eurasian plate remained to the north of this narrow ocean; to
the south were the African plate and a few microplates, also fragments of
Pangaea. As shown in Figure 8-12, two of these microplates moved
northward against Eurasia during Late Cretaceous time. Today, one
represents the Iberian Peninsula (Spain and Portugal)...proceeded toward
the northwest. (Stanley S.M., 1989, p209)
Second, "communication between the Mediterranean and the Atlantic in the
Messinian." The authors identify the sites of this "communication" as either
"farther north (Gudalquivir) or south (external Rif)." In fact on page 697
of Biju-Duval et. al., there is a present-day geological map which shows
these two straits were (or are) about 100 kms north and south of the Strait
of Gibraltar, respectively. They are are also mentioned on page 717 as "a
North Betic Strait and/or a South Rif Strait". In fact, my National Geographic
Atlas shows Gudalquivir as a river in southern Spain and the Er Rif mountains
in northern Morocco.
Hsu also mentions these as well as "two narrow straits, the Betic in
southern Spain and the Riphian in North Africa"
"We envisioned the Mediterranean 20 million years ago as a broad seaway
linking the Indian and the Atlantic oceans. With the collision of the African
and the Asiatic continents and the advent of mountain building in the
Middle East about 15 million years ago, the connection to the Indian Ocean
was severed. Meanwhile, the communication to the Atlantic was
maintained only by way of two narrow straits, the Betic in southern Spain
and the Riphian in North Africa." (Hsu K.J., "The Mediterranean Was a
Desert:," 1983, p170).
Calder speaks of "waterfalls ...at the western end when the Atlantic" which
"spilled over the dam" ("consisting of the southernmost hills of Spain") and
"replenishing the Mediterranean", which "happened not once but many
times" about "every twenty thousand years or so":
"By about 6.6 million years ago, glaciations spread to southern America,
and a new ice sheet buried the islands of western Antarctica The amount of
ice in the world was increasing rapidly, and the ocean surface dropped
farther, by about forty meters. That fall contributed to unusual events in the
Mediterranean. A current flows continually from the Atlantic into the
Mediterranean, to replace the water lost by evaporation from that warm,
land-locked sea. The convergence of northern Africa and Spain threatened
to choke the passage from the Atlantic, and 6.3 million years ago, aided by
the falling sea level, a dam consisting of the southernmost hills of Spain cut
off the water supply. Within a thousand years the Mediterranean dried out,
leaving deep holes in the Earth, spattered with salt lakes that occupied the
abyssal plains and trenches of the ocean floor, two kilometers or more
below sea level....As the sea evaporated, the French Rhone, the Egyptian
Nile, and other rivers feeding the chasm became waterfalls that cut deep
canyons. The greatest waterfalls were salty, and occurred at the western
end when the Atlantic spilled over the dam, replenishing the Mediterranean
That happened not once but many times. Every twenty thousand years or
so the basin filled and dried again, until the deposits of salt became
kilometers thick. Similar mishaps occurred in other episodes during the
abolition or creation of oceans elsewhere, but this was unusually repetitive,
and the world's oceans were losing significant amounts of salt." (Calder N.,
"Timescale An Atlas of the Fourth Dimension," Chatto & Windus: London,
1984, pp135-136)
Hsu confirms these cycles of multiple filling and drying out:
"Clearly the basin was deep and submerged under marine waters when it
was open to the Atlantic, but it turned into a deep hole when the floodgate
was shut and the basin dried up. Because we discovered several oceanic
sediments interbedded with the evaporites, we concluded that the floodgate
swung open and shut repeatedly during an interval of about a million years.
(Hsu K.J., "When the Mediterranean Dried Up," Scientific American, Vol.
227, December 1972, p32)
But eventually, about "5.3 million years ago" "The Atlantic waterfall at
Gibraltar finally excavated a channel deep enough to refill the
Mediterranean permanently":
"The Atlantic waterfall at Gibraltar finally excavated a channel deep
enough to refill the Mediterranean permanently 5.3 million years ago, and
ring down the curtain on an oceanic scandal." (Calder N., 1984, p136)
was filling the Mediterranean *as well as* other "waterfalls" including
presumably those at the "North Betic Strait" and "South Rif Strait".
Biju-Duval et al, do not even mention the final filling of the Mediterranean.
But Hsu, Stanley and Calder all agree that it was a breach AT THE SITE
OF THE PRESENT-DAY STRAIT OF GIBRALTAR that was the final,
permanent filling of the Mediterranean:
Hsu:
"I began to imagine Gibraltar's once being an isthmus that prevented water
from flowing between the Atlantic Ocean and the Mediterranean Sea. The
landlocked sea would have begun to shrink as its waters evaporated under
the strong Mediterranean sun. With the increasing salinity of its waters, all
marine lives would have died out, except for some dwarf species of clams
and snails tolerant of very saline conditions. The inland sea would have
eventually changed into a big salt lake, like a Dead Sea a hundred times
magnified. The brine would have become dense enough to precipitate
gypsum, but the evaporation would have continued. Finally, the
Mediterranean bottom would have been laid bare....Streams draining such a
terrain could have laid down a deposit of gravels such as the one we had
found. Finally, seawater would have broken THE DAM AT GIBRALTAR
and flooded the Mediterranean Basin. Where there had been a salt desert
there would have been again a deep blue sea." (Hsu K.J., 1983, p6. My
emphasis.)
Stanley:
"All of this happened between about 6 million years ago, when the eastern
passage to the Atlantic closed, and 5 million years ago, when the
Mediterranean basin refilled with deep water. Five-million-year- old deep-
water microfossils in sediments on top of evaporites attest to the refilling.
The brief nonmarine interlude corresponded to most of the Messinian Stage
(the final stage of the Miocene Series in Italy, where the disappearance of
the Mediterranean obviously had special significance), and it is for this
reason that the temporary demise of the sea is often referred to as the
Messinian Event. Apparently, the Mediterranean-Atlantic connection was
reestablished when THE NATURAL DAM AT GIBRALTAR was
suddenly breached. It has therefore been suggested that the first Atlantic
waters must have been carried into the deep basin by a waterfall that would
have dwarfed Niagara Falls." (Stanley S.M., 1989, p608. My emphasis).
Calder:
"The Atlantic WATERFALL AT GIBRALTAR finally excavated a channel
deep enough to refill the Mediterranean permanently 5.3 million years ago,
and ring down the curtain on an oceanic scandal." (Calder N., 1984, p136)
Glenn's claim that there was another "channel in the region" which was "1
km deep x 25 km wide":
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On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 17:55:34 -0500, Glenn R. Morton wrote:
GM> So, given a channel in the region of the break with the dimensions:
>
>1 km deep x 25 km wide(15 miles) moving at 24 km/hr (15 mph-the
>speed of the Johnstown flood) we have:
>
>24 km/hr x 24 hours/day x 25 km^2= 14400 cubic kilometers per day.
>
>Thus,
>
>3.7 x 10^6 cubic km/ 14400 cubic km/day = 257 days or 8.5 months.
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is not supported by Biju-Duval et. al., and is contradicted by Hsu, Stanley
and Calder.
Indeed to meet Flood duration of 150 days in Genesis 7:24-8:3 there would have
to be an average flow of 24,672 cubic km/day, which equates to a channel 1 km
deep x 41 km wide! Since today's Strait of Gibraltar is only "8 mi [12.8 km]
wide" at its narrowest and averages "1,200 ft (366 m)" [0.37km] in depth
(Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1984, iv:531), Glenn needs to find a "channel"
existing 5.5 mya that is more than *three times* as wide and nearly *three
times* as deep as the present Strait of Gibraltar.
Also Glenn needs to explain how, why, and when this other "channel" closed up
and the present Strait of Gibraltar opened up.
Unless Glenn can come up with some *hard geological evidence* that supports
his claim that there was another "channel in the region of the break with the
dimensions...1 km deep x 25 [indeed *41*] km wide", his 5.5 mya Mediterranean
Flood hypothesis is falsified as a candidate for the Biblical Flood as
described in Genesis 6-9.
Steve
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Stephen E (Steve) Jones ,--_|\ sejones@ibm.net
3 Hawker Avenue / Oz \ senojes@hotmail.com
Warwick 6024 ->*_,--\_/ Phone +61 8 9448 7439
Perth, West Australia v "Test everything." (1Thess 5:21)
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