On Thu, 13 Aug 1998 11:45:07 -0500, Brendan Frost wrote:
>SJ>This false argument has been around for decades.
BF>It is a false argument. I was wrong to advance it. I don't remember
>where I came across it, probably in college. But to give
>myself and the Bible credit, "3" is one possible, not
>incorrect, estimate of pi. There are merely more precise
>estimates that were around 1000s of years earlier.
While I don't believe the Bible is teaching the value of pi, the fact is that 3
is *not* an "incorrect, estimate of pi." It is a *correct* estimate of pi, to no
decimal points.
While there may have been "more precise estimates that were around 1000s
of years earlier" *none* of them are a "correct, estimate of pi", since it is in
fact impossible to give any more than an approximation of the value of pi.
BF>The argument is false because the Bible was most probably merely
>stating a rule of thumb, not a mathematical truth of the type
>the Babylonians were striving for earlier.
Agreed. Why on Earth would the Bible writers (and God through them) be
interested in telling us the value of pi?
BF>However, that merely serves to point out the limitations
>of the Bible itself. Don't overinterperet its instructions as
>an engineering manual! Wheel fall down then.
Agreed. The Bible is for telling us how to go to heaven, not how the
heavens go.
[...]
BF>Plimer, whom I presume is modern, has no excuse for this:
He is Professor of Geology at the University of Melbourne, Australia.
>SJ>All school children know that pi is not 3 but 3.14159
BF>but he does point out a Biblical reference that has gone
>unmentioned so far, which was my original question....
>SJ>II Chronicles 4:2
It is just a parallel passage.
>SJ>pi is an irrational number
BF>More strongly, transcendental,
OK.
>SJ>1) There is no evidence (at least that I am aware of) that complex
>>fractions and decimals (let alone pi) were known to the ancient
>>Hebrews of ca. 1,000 BC, which is when this took place. With the
>>limited mathematics they had then, ratio of the circumference to the
>>diameter of a circle would have to be expressed in whole numbers.
BF question this, particularly the last sentence. Geometry and
>number are, in the case of pi, incommensurate. That means
>they don't measure the same and never will. All you need to
>define pi better is simple fractions, anyway, tools I hope the
>Hebrew authors had.
There is no Biblical evidence that the Hebrews of 1000 BC had any "simple
fractions" in length beyond "half" (Ex 25:10).
BF>Plimer is right when he implies that
>technology, even the low-tech of a cart-wheel, requires a better
>assessment of circularity than pi equals 3. Even if that assessment
>has not been put into words or number.
The point is that you don't need to know the value of pi at all to make a
cart-wheel!
>SJ>Indeed, it was only in the 3rd Century BC that Archimedes (287-
>>>212 bc), worked out the approximate value of pi:
BF>The Babylonians had a better estimate than the Bible 1000s of
>years before. Their basic method of assessment
>was the same as Archimedes', i.e. the proto-calculus notion of
>finding area by dividing it into an arbitrarily large number of smaller,
>equal, areas. Pi slices!
I was aware that the Babylonians knew a value of pi. My point was that if a
more *exact* value of pi was demanded, then it was not until 800 years
later that Archimedes derived it.
>SJ>The ancient Hebrews of 1,000 BC were an agrarian people with
>>limited technology and they had to import craftsmen from other
>>nations to build the temple that this verse refers to. The context
>>indicates that the builder of the dish was one "Huram" of "Tyre "a
>>craftsman in bronze....highly skilled and experienced in all kinds of
>>bronze work." (1Kings 7:13-14).
BF>I knew the Knights Templar were mixed up in this!!
Not 1,000 BC they weren't!
"Knights Templars, members of a medieval religious and military order
officially named the Order of the Poor Knights of Christ. They were
popularly known as the Knights of the Temple of Solomon, or Knights
Templars, because their first quarters in Jerusalem adjoined a building
known at the time as Solomon's Temple. The order developed from a small
military band formed in Jerusalem in 1119 by two French knights, Hugh
des Payens and Godfrey of St. Omer..." "Knights Templars," Microsoft (R)
Encarta. Copyright (c) 1993 Microsoft Corporation. Copyright (c) 1993
Funk & Wagnall's Corporation
>SJ>2) Pi is an irrational number, so whatever measurement used would
>>be an approximation:
BF>Pi does not come from the world of number.
> It is a geometrical relationship.
>That, in my opinion, is its transcendental beauty.
Agreed. But my point was that *no* value of pi could be given that was
not an approximation.
>SJ>It is therefore both unreasonable and lacking in historical insight for
>>critics to argue that the Bible teaches that pi = 3, and therefore it is
>>not infallible, and therefore it is not from God. If the Bible actually
>>had a statement that pi = 3 then they would have a case. But it
>>doesn't and they don't.
BF>I agree. But see my theological "argument" above. It just seems
>cruel and capricious of God not to provide more of the truth about pi,
>especially since the Hebrew text is supposed to be uniquely inspired.
>That's not an argument, that's just the way I feel about that particular
>passage, since I believe in a Geometer (Cosmometer?) God.
The Bible is "inspired" to make us "wise for salvation through faith in
Christ Jesus" (2Tim 3:15), not to teach us maths.
On Thu, 13 Aug 1998 11:58:23 -0500, Brendan Frost wrote:
>SJ>My Bible footnotes say that either the dimensions given were an
>>approximation, or that the measurements were not taken taken
>>from the same positions on the rim:
BF>Another possibility is that the value was a traditionalized corruption
>of earlier scientific knowledge, i.e. a "rule of thumb" that would
>create a visibly out-of-round item if the author actually tried it.
That is always possible, but it is an unnecessary hypothesis. There is no
evidence that I am aware of that the ancient Hebrews of 1,000 BC had that
kind of "scientific knowledge". The Bible reveals them as deficient in
advanced technology and having to import it from the surrounding nations.
Steve
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Stephen E (Steve) Jones ,--_|\ sejones@ibm.net
3 Hawker Avenue / Oz \ senojes@hotmail.com
Warwick 6024 ->*_,--\_/ Phone +61 8 9448 7439
Perth, West Australia v "Test everything." (1Thess 5:21)
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