On Sun, 01 Feb 1998 23:09:19 +1100, Derek McLarnen wrote:
>SJ>I did not claim that atheists/agnostics are unethical. Just that
>>their belief system gives them no reason to be.
DM>Not quite. It is what we believe about people, rather than
>supernatural entities, that causes atheists and agnostics to behave
>ethically.
What is there specifically in the atheist/agnostic position that
causes them to "believe (whatever they believe) about people"? And
what is there in their position which would give any individual
atheist/agnostic any reason not to follow a personal survival
strategy of maximising his personal advantage (including lying,
stealing and cheating), while all the while minimising
his disadvantage (by pretending to be nice guy so that others
couldn't retaliate).
DM>People who believe in an all-seeing, all-judging deity
>subscribe to "Thou shalt not get caught." Since they believe it is
>impossible to "not get caught", they equate "not doing" with "not
>getting caught"!
First, you left out "all-loving" and "all-forgiving" between
"all-seeing" and "all-judging deity", which accurately describes the
*Christian* God. While no doubt negatively the fear of coming under
God's judgment is very real to a Christian who believes that there
really is a holy God who hates sin. But positively, there is a
stronger motive to do good out of love and gratitude to this
all-loving, all-forgiving God.
But your "attack is the best defence" strategy this actually confirms
my point. The theist who believes in in an "all-seeing, all-judging
deity" at least beleives in something which will ensure that he will
certainly "get caught". The atheist/agnostic position has no such
reason to fear getting caught, but even more importantly nothing
that does any "judging". So, if the individual atheist/agnostic
decides: 1. what he does is right in his own eyes to maximise his
own personal advantage (including lying, stealing and cheating); and
2. there is no possibility of him being detected, let alone caught,
what is there specifically in his atheist/agnostic position which
would stop him lying, stealing and cheating?
DM>This also raises another old question. Who is behaving more
>ethically: the person who treats others as he would be treated
>because he is commanded to by a deity who punishes transgressions,
>or a person who treats others as he would be treated without thought
>of reward for compliance or punishment for transgression, but simply
>because he recognises that a society based on this principle offers
>the greatest opportunity for both stable communal living and
>individual freedom?
I would like to know how the atheist/agnostic determines which is
"more ethical" when he lacks an absolute standard by which to evaluate
ethical positions.
Indeed, why in the atheist/agnostic position, is it "behaving more
ethically" to 2. "treat others as he would be treated...simply because
he recognises that a society based on this principle offers the greatest
opportunity for both stable communal living and individual freedom", than
1. "because he is commanded to by a deity who punishes transgressions"?
Elsewhere you seem to have defined your ethical standard of "more ethical"
operationally as "Because they work for me personally, and they appear to
have a moderating effect on my society." (Derek McLarnen, Sun, 01 Feb 1998,
Re: Debate). On this basis it would seem that 1. being "commanded to [treat
others as he would be treated] by a deity who punishes transgressions"
works at least as well and has at least as strong a moderating effect on
society, as 2.
In any event, even granting that you might be able to show that 1. is
more ethical than 2., it is still not clear to me at least why an
individual atheist/agnostic doesn't maximise his survival advantage in
Darwinian fashion by promoting both views for others while personally
giving lip service to them for himself.
Regards,
Steve
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Stephen E (Steve) Jones ,--_|\ sejones@ibm.net
3 Hawker Avenue / Oz \ Steve.Jones@health.wa.gov.au
Warwick 6024 ->*_,--\_/ Phone +61 8 9448 7439
Perth, West Australia v "Test everything." (1Thess 5:21)
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