On Sun, 01 Feb 1998 23:15:34 +1100, Derek McLarnen wrote:
[...]
>SJ>Firstly, how are you my old friend?
DM>Really well. I'll send you a personal message soon.
I'll look forward to it.
>SJ>There seems a contradiction between "...and mostly living by
>>Christian ethics" and "...I live as though no deities exist..."? If
>>there *really* was no Christian God, why live "by Christian ethics"?
DM>Because they work for me personally, and they appear to have a
>moderating effect on my society.
The same would no doubt apply to many systems of ethics. I would have
thought that since atheists/agnostics generally believe that Moses and
Jesus were deluded at best and frauds at worst, that as a point of
principle one should not follow their system of ethics but should try
to live by a non-theistic system of ethics that are not based on
what must be, in the final analysis, fantasy.
DM>Because the Christian ethical system is generally familiar to most
>Australians and, if I am seen to live by this system, it is easier to
>form personal and business relationships based on trust than if I were
>living by an equally ethical, but less familiar, system.
You earlier appear to have characterised the Christian ethical system
as:
"People who believe in an all-seeing, all-judging deity subscribe to
"Thou shalt not get caught." Since they believe it is impossible to
"not get caught", they equate "not doing" with "not getting caught"
(Derek McLarnen, Re: Tom Pearson wrote, Sun, 01 Feb 1998)
but I presume you as an atheist/agnostic cannot mean that. So what
exactly is "the Christian ethical system" that you live by, and how
can it be truly "Christian" if it leaves out the centrepiece of
Christianity, namely an all-powerful, all-seeing, and all-loving,
God?
DM>Because I have self-discipline, I don't need there to be a God
>watching me constantly to ensure that I behave ethically.
This sounds more like Stoic ethics than Christian ethics. In any
event, "self-discipline" is not necessarily ethical. No doubt
Hitler had to have self-discipline to steel himself to murder
6 million Jews. The real question is: having no absolute stamdard,
how does the atheist/agnostic decide what he should exercise his
self-discipline toward?
>SJ>If I were convinced that there was no God, the logical thing for me
>>to to do would be to screw everyone as much as I could (including
>>lying, stealing and cheating), but all the while pretending to be a
>>nice guy so they couldn't retaliate. That would maximise my
>>advantage while minimising my disadvantage.
DM>Too simplistic. Firstly, such a lifestyle would be enormously stressful
>and your health would suffer.
No problem. I could easily build one's stress levels into the equation,
and regulate how much of a life of deception I lead, so my health
didn't suffer. Even a continual series of small advantage over others
would be worthwhile. In any event, you have just lauded "self-discipline"
as a virtue. Why couldn't I discipline myself to live such a lifestyle?
DM>Secondly, however good you were at pretending, someone would be better
>at seeing through your pretence; therefore you would be exposed and rejected
>by your society.
This seems to be simply substituting "a God watching me constantly to ensure
that I behave ethically" with people "watching me constantly to ensure that
I behave ethically". But the point is that as you yourself have admitted, it
is possible to deceive people, but not to deceive an all-seeing God.
DM>Thirdly, if you chose to act this way in the absense of a God, you would
>be a rarity; there are many societies that do not believe in an all-seeing,
>all-judging God but have not descended into anarchy.
Indeed, being a "rarity" would be the main advantage of chosing to act this
way! You haven't really given any reasons why, if I really beleieve there
was no God, I shouldn't maximise my personal advantage while minimising my
disadvantage, by screwing everyone as much as I could (including lying,
stealing and cheating), while pretending to be a nice guy so they couldn't
retaliate.
Regards
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Stephen E (Steve) Jones ,--_|\ sejones@ibm.net
3 Hawker Avenue / Oz \ Steve.Jones@health.wa.gov.au
Warwick 6024 ->*_,--\_/ Phone +61 8 9448 7439
Perth, West Australia v "Test everything." (1Thess 5:21)
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