On Tue, 06 Jan 1998 20:28:35 -0600, Glenn Morton wrote:
>SJ>Yunis & Prakash's excellent article is carefully and conservatively
>>argued and for me settles decisively the issue of man's common
>>ancestry with "a progenitor of chimpanzee and man" (Yunis & Prakash,
>>p1525). I thank you for drawing it to my attention.
>>
>>I have no problem if God fused an ape's two chromosomes but then I am
>>a Progressive (Mediate) Creationist, who maintains that God may have
>>supernaturally intervened at strategic points in the history of
>>life. But it seems a bit inconsistent for you, a Theistic
>>Evolutionist, to maintain that God fused only chromosome 2, but left
>>the other chromosome to change by natural mechanisms. If the other
>>chromosomes can change by natural mechanisms, why can't chromosome
>>2?
GM>Stephen, I must say I am impressed that you were willing to change
>your opinion about this issue.
Thank you for your kind words, but unfortunately I cannot accept your
claim that I have changed my opinion on the common ancestry of man
and chimp. For several years now (as you surely must know since it
was you who congratulated me on it then), I have provisionally
accepted common ancestry up to including man. On 28 Jun 95 I posted:
----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 95 21:24:48 EDT
From: sjones@iinet.com.au (Stephen Jones)
To: "Evolution" <evolution@Calvin.EDU>
Cc: "Terry Gray" <grayt@Calvin.EDU>, "Glenn Morton" <Glenn.Morton@oryx.com>
Subject: Re: Clarification of my Progressive Creationist position
All
ABSTRACT: This post is over 100 lines long. It represents a shift
in my position to a more consistent Progressive Creationist position.
I discuss important evidence supporting the reptilian
jawbones-mammalian earbones transition from Gould's "Eight Little
Piggies". I now accept this transition as fact, although I do not
accept it happened by a 100% natural process....
[...]
I now think it is a wrong approach to deny transitional forms and
features. This however does not mean that every claimed transitional
form should be uncritically accepted. Terry has posted good evidence
that all primates (including man) have the same switched-off gene
that prevents them from synthesing vitamin C. This is good evidence
of common ancestry and I provisionally accept it, pending more
information....
----------------------------------------------------------
To which you replied:
----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed 28 Jun 1995 10:27 CT
To: sjones@iinet.com.au
From: Glenn.Morton@ORYX.COM
Subject: Re: Clarification of my Progress
In-Reply-To: The letter of Wednesday, 28 June 1995 8:47am CT
I am truly humbled by your thanks. I know exactly how difficult a
paradigm shift like that is. Maybe someday, I can convince you that
my view does not in the least depend on naturalism, but that is for
another day.
----------------------------------------------------------
My acceptance of Yunis & Prakash's chromosomal evidence does not
repreent a change of opinion regarding the descent of man from the
apes, but a rather a firmer settling of this issue in my mind.
>SJ>Of course, the above applies to *modern* humans. Your 5.5 mya
>>Flood theory is that Adam was not a modern human but either a Homo
>>habilis or Australopithecus:
[...]
GM>You are correct that we may never know and I tend to agree
>that the Piths probably weren't human in a theological sense.
OK. So that rules out Australopithecus as Adam. But you had no
choice. Your own Yunis and Prakash article has a chart which shows
*enormous* chromosomal changes between the "Hominid-orang precursor"
(presumably Australopithecus) and "Human" (best viewed with
monospaced font):
Human
18
2
|
1
|
Chimpanzee 17-18-15-12-9-5-4---|
9 Human-chimpanzee
7 progenitor
2p
|
Gorilla 17-18-14-12-10-8-5-4-1-|
Y
|
X
22
21
20
19
18
17
16
15
14
13
12
11
Orangutan 20 10
\ 9
17 8
\ 7
11 6 Hominid
\ 5 ancestor
8 4
\ 3
4 2q
\ 2p
2q 1
\ |
\|
Hominid-orang 3-7-10--17--Y--|
precursor
Fig. 3. Presumed ancestors of man, chimpanzee, gorilla, and
orangutan.
(Yunis J.J. & Prakash O., "The Origin of Man: A Chromosomal Pictorial
Legacy," Science, Vol. 215, No. 4539, March 1982, p1528)
[...]
>>GM>Stephen, Stephen, you forget that man starts with a single cell, a
>>>fertilized egg. If the fusion happens here, then it will be in all the 100
>>>trillion cells derived from that egg....
>SJ>I didn't "forget"...Your web page says that Adam was a "still
>>born" whom God "fixed": ... This seems to imply that God
>>"fixed" Adam, ie. carried out the chromosomal fusion, *after* Adam
>>was delivered still-born. Now you are saying the fusion took place
>>when Adam was "a single cell". Which is it to be?
GM>No. In my view the fusion was the cause of Adam's still birth.
OK. So what you are saying is that the chromosomal fusion was a
natural mutation and the supernatural intervention was where God
"fixed him":
"During this time, there was among the physical ancestor of man a
very rare mutation -- a chromosomal fusion. But this error was
almost always fatal. God took one of these creatures, a still born,
fixed him, and blew his breath into him." (Morton G.R., "A Theory
for Creationists", DMD Publishing Co., 1996,
http://members.gnn.com/GRMorton/dmd.htm).
But if this chromosomal fusion was fatal, and yet it persists
today, what exactly was it that God did when He "fixed" this
ape to make him Adam?
[...]
>SJ>But this seems to defeats your whole argument for the essential
>>difference between chimp and man being a fused chromosome 2. If the
>>material inside the chromosomes is of greater importance, and the
>>location of lesser importance, then why your emphasis on this one
>>fused chromosome?
GM>I have never claimed that the "essential difference" between us
>and the apes is a chromosomal fusion. The essential difference
>between us and them is the fact that we have the image of God and
>all that entails, they don't.
Then why the prominence given in your "A Theory for Creationists" to
the fusion of two ape chromosomes to make one chromosome 2, and God
fixing it to make man? What exactly is the relationship between this
chromosomal fusion and fixing and the image of God?
God bless.
Steve
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Stephen E (Steve) Jones ,--_|\ sejones@ibm.net
3 Hawker Avenue / Oz \ Steve.Jones@health.wa.gov.au
Warwick 6024 ->*_,--\_/ Phone +61 8 9448 7439
Perth, West Australia v "Test everything." (1Thess 5:21)
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