Re: Debate

jon thompson (jthomps1@d.umn.edu)
Sat, 13 Dec 1997 19:08:35 -0600 (CST)

Derek,
Some more thoughts on the issue.
The issue is not whether Christian eduction has been tried and found
wanting, but the fundamental religious nature of humanism. Leo Pfeffer
argued sucessfuly in front of the supreme court in torcaso v. Watkins
that indeed humanism is a religion. The AHA has a 501 c3 religious tax
exemption. I heard what you said about ecoism but I have no time to
respond now. Education can never take place in a philosophical vacuum. I
submitt to you that humanism is a religion. Why is it in
the schools?

JON T.
__________________________________________________________________________
The woods are lovely, dark and deep. | Jonathan D. Thompson
But I have promises to keep, | jthomps1@d.umn.edu
And miles to go before I sleep, | http://www.d.umn.edu/~jthomps1
And miles to go before I sleep. |
Robert Frost |
_______________________________________|___________________________________
Education is the most powerful ally of Humanism, and every American public
school is a school of Humanism. What can the theistic Sunday Schools,
meeting for an hour once a week,and teaching only a fraction of the
children do to stem the tide of a five-day program of Humanistic teaching?
Charles Francis Potter
__________________________________________________________________________

On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, Derek McLarnen wrote:

> I have been involved in debates here a year or more ago, but for those
> who don't remember me, I'll post a short bio.
>
> My name is Derek McLarnen. I live in Canberra, Australia. I am 41 years
> old, married with 5 children and work as a telecommunications
> consultant. While a nominal Anglican (Episcopalian is the US equivalent,
> I think) and mostly living by Christian ethics, I classify myself as an
> agnostic philosophically (since I don't know whether any deities exist),
> and as an atheist for practical purposes (since I live as though no
> deities exist). Technically, I suppose I could classify myself as a
> modernist, but I don't see a compelling reason to do so. I have a strong
> interest in exploring the areas where religion and science intersect,
> but I am an amateur in these disciplines, not a professional (unless
> someone can find me a place where religion intersects with
> telecommunications theory or practice).
>
> Jon Thompson quoted:
>
> > __________________________________________________________________________
> >
> > Education is the most powerful ally of Humanism, and every American
> > public
> > school is a school of Humanism. What can the theistic Sunday Schools,
> > meeting for an hour once a week,and teaching only a fraction of the
> > children do to stem the tide of a five-day program of Humanistic
> > teaching?
> > Charles Francis
> > Potter
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________________
>
> My short answer is "Nothing!". And I would also suggest that American
> public schools, if Australian public schools are any guide, have moved
> away from "humanism" to become strong proponents of "ecoism" (a system
> of values based on sound ecologically sustainable principles). And if
> Christians thought the fight against secular humanism was a difficult
> one, the fight against ecoism (both secular and new-age variants) will
> make it look easy.
>
> However, this quote of Potter's does raise a number of questions worthy
> of debate.
>
> Is education really the most powerful ally of humanism, or indeed an
> ally of any type of -ism, or is Potter's claim merely rhetoric?
>
> Are American public schools really schools of humanism or even ecoism?
> >From what we hear of them in Australia, they are schools of
> individualism at best, or nihilism at worst.
>
> Given that for much of the last 1600 years, education in the western
> world was dominated by theistic, specifically Christian, institutions,
> what has caused educational institutions to distance themselves from
> Christian control and influence as soon as it became politically and
> economically feasible to do so?
>
> If one or more of the many theisms continue to have intrinsic value, why
> has "Education" chosen after so many successful centuries of symbiosis,
> to reject any role for theism in its programs?
>
> If an education system is to endorse a system of theism, it can only
> credibly endorse ONE, since few theisms cope well with pluralism. How is
> an education system to determine which theism to endorse? In the past it
> would appear that the decision was based on state law, state preference
> or on the dominant theism of the parents of the students. Are these
> valid methods of selecting a theism? If not, how should an educational
> system select its preferred theism?
>
> This quote appears to assume that it would be a good thing if "the tide
> of a five-day program of Humanistic teaching" could be stemmed. I notice
> this assumption among many Christians, but mostly evangelicals. They
> appear to very rarely, if ever, question the worth of their belief
> system, or their perception of the lack of worth in other belief
> systems. They appear not to notice that the rest of the world,
> particularly the western world, is putting a great deal of intellectual
> effort into questioning all belief systems.
>
> Is Potter's assumption, that it would be a good thing if "the tide of a
> five-day program of Humanistic teaching" could be stemmed, a universally
> valid assumption? Or is it only valid for supernaturalists? It is
> difficult to argue with the evidence that humans exist. On the other
> hand, gods or other supernatural entities have not been shown to be more
> than hypotheses.
>
> It should be remembered that, in the western world, we have tried the
> five-day program of Christian teaching over many centuries. Surely it
> wasn't rejected without serious consideration!
>
> While schools have children for about 30 hours per week, and Sunday
> schools have children for about 1 hour per week, the home/community has
> children for about 67 waking hours per week (assuming 10 hours sleep per
> night). On that basis I would suggest that the real problem for
> proponents of the various theisms is not that they have lost the
> respect/devotion of the educational system, but that they have lost the
> respect/devotion of the wider community.
>
> The fact is that, with the exception of a number of geographical
> regions, the western world has largely, in fact if not yet in name,
> moved beyond devoted support for the theisms. I don't expect that it
> will return willingly.
>
> Regards
>
> Derek
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> | Derek McLarnen | dmclarne@pcug.org.au |
> | Melba ACT | derek.mclarnen@telstra.com.au |
> | Australia | |
> ----------------------------------------------------
>
>
>