On Sat, 05 Jul 1997 21:13:03 -0500, Glenn Morton wrote:
GM>This is a list of human technological achievements which I compiled for
>another list. It has implications for Jim's view of humanity. Below the
>line are all the things Jim feels animals (soul-less non-humans) are capable
>of performing. If you know of a dog or cat who can do these things, or even
>a monkey that can do the things below the line, you can get rich at the side
>shows.
Once again, thanks for all this archaeological info.
GM>History of Human Chronology, compiled by G.R. Morton,
>http://www.isource.net/~grmorton/dmd.htm
>
>Age BP Oldest example of... place Species
>Ref.
>
>
>2.0 kyr continuous industrial site Bigo, Uganda H. s. 1
>2.0 kyr grammar text Greece H. s. 2
>3.0 kyr census Israel H. s. 3
>3.0 kyr iron mine Velem St. Vid, Hungary H. s. 4
>4.0 kyr oldest song Ur, Iraq H. s. 5
>4.5 kyr Maya farming Belize H. s. 6
>4.8 kyr fixed calendrical date Egypt H. s. 7
>5.0 kyr extrabibilcal person's name Egypt H. s. 8
>6.0 kyr iron object Egypt H. s. 9
>6.0 kyr existant ship England H. s. 10
>6.0 kyr horse domesticated Ukraine H. s. 11
>6.5 kyr gold jewelry Varna, Bulgaria H. s. 12
>7.0 kyr wine Zagros Mtns, Iran H. s. 13
>7.5 kyr two-stage domed kiln Yarim Tepe, Iraq H. s. 14
>8.4 kyr dugout canoe Pesse, Netherlands H. s. 15
>9.0 kyr fragment of cloth Turkey H. s. 16
>9.0 kyr pigs domesticated Greece H. s. 17
>9.0 kyr continuous religion Queensland,Australia H. s. 18
>9.4 kyr boat paddle Star Carr, England H. s. 19
>9.5 kyr sheep domesticated Turkey H. s. 20
>10 kyr goats domesticated Asiab,Iran H. s. 21
>10 kyr wooden Australian boomerang Wyrie Swamp, Australia H. s. 22
>10 kyr depiction of warfare Australia H. s. 23
>11 kyr basket Danger Cave, Utah H. s. 24
>11 kyr wooden arrow Hamburg, Germany H. s. 25
>12 kyr city Mureybet Syria H. s. 26
>12 kyr arrowhead San Teodoro, Sicily H. s. 27
>13 kyr flint sickle Middle East H. s. 28
>13 kyr first pottery Japan H. s. 29
>13 kyr copper working various H. s. 30
>13-14 kyr toothpick South Africa H. s. 31
>13-14 kyr extant wooden hut remains Monte Verde, Chile H. s. 32
>14 kyr fish hooks Europe H. s. 33
>14 kyr H.S. religious sanctuary El Juyo Cave, Spain H. s. 34
>18-19 kyr bone sewing needle Europe H. s.
> 35
>19.3 kyr twisted fiber cord Othalo, Israel H. s. 36
>19. kyr fishing net Ohalo II, Israel H. s. 37
>20 kyr ivory boomerang Oblazowa, Poland H. s. 38
>23 kyr ground stone tools Malangangerr, Australia H. s. 39
>25 kyr net fishing Willendra Lake, Australia H. s. 40
>25 kyr puppet Brno, Moravia H. s. 41
>27 kyr impression of woven cloth Eastern Europe H. s. 42
>27 kyr ceramics Dolni Vestonice H. s. 43
>30 kyr human cremation Lake Mungo Australia H. s. 44
>32 kyr coal mine Landek, Czechoslovakia H. s. 45
>35 kyr fossil collection Arcy-sur-Cure H. s. n. 46
>
>Limit of Jim's humanity. This is when Jim thinks mankind was created.
>Below here only animals walk.
>
>36 kyr glue Umm el Tlel, Syria ? 47
>39 kyr cave painting Carpenter's Gap,Australia a. H.s. 48
>43-67 kyr 7 note musical scale Divje Babe I, Slovenia H.s.n.
> 49
>45 kyr Neanderthal flute Divje Babe I, Slovenia H.s.n. 50
This was a not so much a "flute" as a bone whistle. BTW if
Neandertal was no relation to Homo sapiens (see my post
"Neanderthals no relation?"), then either this "flute" was made by
Homo sapiens or it is irrelevant to the question of Homo sapiens
origins.
>47 kyr surgical amputation Shanidar, Iraq H.s.n. 51
>50 kyr shaman's cape Hortus, France H.s.n. 52
Here is about where many old-earth/young Adam proponents (eg. Hugh
Ross) place the upper limits of the Biblical genealogy:
"Some scholars argue that the biblical genealogies can be stretched
indefinitely. Such stretching seems unwarranted by relevant biblical
and scientific data. The most reliable and conservative Hebrew
scholarship I have read places the biblical date for the creation of
Adam and Eve between about 10,000 and 35,000 years ago (with the
outside limits at about 6,000 and 60,000 years)." (Ross H.,
"Creation and Time", 1994, p140)
"For the sake of argument, though, what would the Australian find
mean for the Christian faith, if the date were to prove accurate?
Given the gaps in some biblical genealogies, the creation of Adam and
Eve could possibly be dated as far back as 60,000 years ago, less
reasonably, even earlier. The conclusion that art expression can
only come from the spirit of man is the one I would debate." (Ross
H, "The Meaning of Art and Music", Facts & Faith, Fourth Quarter
1996, pp6,11)
GM>60 kyr Neanderthal hut/tent Molodova, Russia
H.s.n. 53
>68 kyr Murder by spear Shanidar, Iraq H.s.n. 54
>70-80 kyr Neanderthal art,pseudoVenus Wildenmannlisloch, Switz. H.s.n. 55
>70-80 kyr musical instrument-flute Haua Fteah, Libya H.s.n. 56
As has been pointed out to your many times, there is no evidence that
this was a "musical instrument", much less a "flute", in the sense we
use the term today. Anthropologists refer to these class of
artifacts as bone whistles.
GM>73 kyr use of coal for fire Les Canalettes
H.s.n. 57
>75-116 kyr rock engraving Jinmium, Australia a. H. s. 58
>80 kyr H. s. wooden spear Mt. Carmel, Israel H. s. 59
>80 kyr Neanderthal bone tool Regourdou, France H.s.n. 60
>80 kyr religious sanctuary Drachenloch,Switzerland H.s.n. 61
>90-100 kyr whistles Prolom II, Crimea a.H. s. 62
>110 kyr underground mining Lion Cave, Swaziland ? 63
>110-130 kyr Neanderthal spear Lehringen, Germany H.s.n. 64
>130 kyr burial Krapina, Croatia H.s.n. 65
>130 kyr food processors various a. H. s. 66
>140 kyr over-horizon sailing Australia a. H. s. 67
There is no evidence it was "sailing", ie. a boat with a sail. It is
thought the earliest inhabitants of Australia may have floated over on
rafts:
"The Australians are not seafaring peoples. Before the arrival of
Europeans, the peoples of the northern Australian coast did make
rafts of mangrove or driftwood, but these could not float for more
than a few hours before becoming waterlogged These peoples lost, or
never acquired, the technology needed to hollow out tree trunks to
make canoes. So how did they get to Australia in the first place?
Perhaps on bamboo rafts, which are as easy to make as bark boats but
float for a good deal longer. There is plentiful bamboo on the tropical
island of Timor, just to the northeast of the Australian mainland. And,
sixty thousand years ago, soon after the start of the last major Ice
Age, the sea level was at least 200 meters lower than it is now.
Today, Timor is separated from Australia by 600 kilometers of open
ocean. During the Ice Age maximum, a huge Australian coastal plain
extended almost all the way to the island. Migrants from Timor
would have been checked only by a narrow stretch of water some 70-
90 kilometers wide. This strait could easily have been crossed, by
accident or design, by peoples on bamboo rafts. But, if there were
few or no bamboos in the area when they arrived, it would have been
a one-way voyage. After their rafts had cracked and split in the sun
on the hot Australian shore, there was no way back." (Wills C., "The
Runaway Brain: The Evolution of Human Uniqueness", 1994, pp146-147)
>200 kyr post hole Lunel-Viel a. H. s. 68
>200 kyr Neanderthal bedding Lazaret, France H.s.n. 69
>200 kyr Neanderthal living floor Grotte d'Aldene H.s.n. 70
>230 kyr European human dung Terra Amata, France H. e.? 71
>240 kyr Upper Paleo.blade tools Kenya ? 72
>240-700 kyr carpentered wooden plank Gesher Benot Ya'aqov H. e. 73
>250 kyr Mousterian tools Vaufry Cave, France ? 74
>300 kyr geometric engraving Pech de lAze H. e.
> 75
>300 kyr Arctic clothing needed Diring Yuriakh,Siberia ? 76
>300 kyr jewelry various H. e. 77
>330 kyr Depiction of human form Berekhat Ram, Israel H. e./a.H.s 78
Or just a lump of lava? We never did hear the result of Marshack's electron
microscope examination of this so-called "Golan Venus". What we do know is
that a year or so later he was claiming something else dated only "54,000-year old"
found in the same general area as "evidence that art did not begin in
Europe":
"The creation of the first artistic images is usually credited to early
Europeans, who some 33,000 years ago began carving vulvas and
animals on rock and ivory in France and Germany. The discovery of
this 54,000-year old, three inch wide engraved flint may change that
perception. The flint was excavated near the Syrian town of Quneitra;
in the Israeli-controlled Golan Heights by Naama Goren-Inbar of
Jerusalem's Hebrew University. Both Neanderthals and anatomically
modern humans lived in the region when this image of four nested
arcs were engraved-with another piece of flint And both were tool
users and hunter-gatherers. But archeologist Alexander Marshack of
Harvard's Peabody Museum says it's most likely the artist was a more
modern human since known Neanderthal artifacts to date, aside from
tools, have been limited to things like beads and worked ivory.
Marshack doesn't know what the image represents. "When I looked
at it for the first time, it looked like a rainbow with rain, but that's not
what I'm saying it is," he says. "If I am correct, and this is an early
depiction, then you have evidence that art did not begin in Europe.
And if it was there in the Middle East, it was probably also in Africa
and Australia and in Asia. Europe was not the beginning of
everything." ("Early Etchings", Discover, Vol. 17, No. 7, July 1996,
p26)
BTW, you've got the date wrong - it was 230 kyr ago, not "330 kyr":
"In his note on the Berekhat Ram figurine, excavated from a late
Acheulian level and dated at ca. 230,000 B.P. CA 3 5: 674-75),
Pelcin argues that the figurine is scoria, as it was generically
described in the initial publication. He documents the fact that scoria
can acquire odd shapes and natural grooving and therefore
recommends that the Berekhat Ram figurine be subjected to
microscopic analysis. I performed such microscopic analysis in the
summer of 1994 and am preparing the results for publication."
(Marshack A., "On the `Geological' Explanation of the Berekhat Ram
Figurine," Current Anthropology, 36:3, June, 1995, p495).
>350 kyr stone wall Bhimbetka, India a.H.s/H.e. 79
>3-400 kyr Scalping Bodo,Ethiopia H. e. 80
>3-400 kyr European huts Bilzingsleben,Germany H. e. 81
>3-400 kyr paved social area Bilzingsleben,Germany H. e. 82
>3-400 kyr evidence of counting Bilzingsleben,Germany H. e. 83
>400 kyr wooden spears Schoningen, Germany H. e. 84
>400 kyr 3 component composite tools Schoningen, Germany H. e. 85
>400 kyr tools made by other tools Schoningen, Germany H. e. 86
>400 kyr wooden boomerang Schoningen, Germany H. e. 87
>500 kyr mineral collection Zhoukoudian, China H. e. 88
>500 kyr man and canine assoc. Zhoukoudian, China H. e. 89
>500 kyr Asian fire Zhoukoudian, China H. e. 90
>700 kyr Asian over ocean travel Flores, Indonesia H. e. 91
>750 kyr European fire Escale Cave, France H. e. 92
>800-900 kyr Homo erectus bedding Wonderwork Cave, S. A. H. e. 93
>970 kyr European structure Soleihac Cave H. e.? 94
>1.0 MYR tanning hides Swartkrans, South Africa H. e. 95
>1.5 MYR evidence of fire Swartkrans South Africa H. e./A.r.96
>1.5 MYR woodworking Koobi Fora, Kenya H. e. 97
>1.6 MYR Man-made representative art Olduvai Gorge H. e.? 98
>1.6 MYR working with animal hides Swartkrans A. r. 99
>1.6 MYR bone tool Swartkrans A. r.
> 100
>1.7 MYR Human compassion East Africa H. e.
> 101
>1.8 MYR over ocean travel? Orce, Spain H. e.
> 102
>1.9 MYR Right-handedness Koobi Fora H. e.
> 103
>1.95 MYR Larynx capable of Speech H. e.
> 104
>2.0 MYR Brain structure of Language Lake Rudolf H. h.
> 105
>2.0 MYR Windbreak structure Olduvai H. e.
> 106
>2.0 MYR Oldest Toothpick use Ethiopia H. e.
> 107
Considering that on your theory, man made a 3-decker ark 3.5 MYR
*before* this "toothpick", it was some "technological dark age"!
>2.5 MYR Genus Homo Lake Rudolf H. r.
> 108
>2.6 MYR Stone tools Gona,Ethiopia ?
> 109
>3.0 MYR recognized art Makapansgat,South Afr. A. af.
This was a pebble that resembled a primate face which it was thought that
Australopithecus recognised and collected. It is not claimed that
Australopithecus made the face. Since it is only one of a kind, it
might just be something that the archaeologist recognised and
collected! In any event, at most it demonstrates something like mirror-
awareness (acknowledged in apes).
This really conclusively refutes your 5.5 mya Adam theory, because
unless Noah's descendents lost their intelligence and memory after the
Flood, (not just their technology) then a gap of 2.5 mya before we
find even the first beginnings of art is inexplicable.
> 110
>3.4 MYR TMJ Disease Laetoli, Tanzania A. af.
> 111
>4.0 MYR Bipedalism Kanapoi, Kenya A. an.
> 112
Here you would place Adam and Noah, *before* "Bipedalism"! Maybe they
used rollerblades? ;-)
>5.5 MYR earliest hominid fossil Lothagam, Kenya A. ?
> 113
You neglect to mention that this "earliest hominid fossil" is just a
fragment of jaw with one or two teeth. That experts are undecided
whether it is from an ape or an Australopithecine. And that the date
of 5.5 ZMYR" was estimated by the less reliable method of faunal
correlation.
Also, here you forgot to mention the greatest ancient human
artifact of all - a 3-decker ark!
[...]
Thanks again for documenting beginning and steady increase in art and
technology, from "3.0 MYR" on, which of course comprehensively refutes
your own position! Indeed, according to your own data, "Bipedalism"
did not appear until "4.0 MYR".
God bless.
Steve
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