Gene:
> >> >I don't think it says much other than that humans are *bastards*.
Russell:
> >> Exactly. And Christianity clearly has not changed that, despite
> >> having 2,000 years in which to do so.
Gene:
> > Well, perhaps that isn't so obvious. I think that one could make
> >a case that Christianity *has* actually been of net benefit to mankind.
> >Individually and collectively I think that faith in Christ has helped the
> >human race. I'll admit to some bias in this direction, however. :-)
Russell:
> Fair enough. But that has been the whole point of debate here all along.
> Jim has argued that Christianity has had a net positive effect on human
> morality, and in response I have pointed out the numerous historical cases
> of attrocities committed in the name of God. Jim has responded to this by
> saying that we can't count those cases because, well, these attrocities were
> stopped eventually. I hardly find that a compelling argument.
You know what we are really lacking in this discussion is an adequate
control--one that everybody can agree on. The Christian says that humans
are rotten because of original sin. Faith in Christ does improve this
state, but men are still able to sin until the redemption of the body when
it seems that things will change. Moral improvement does not take place
without human effort however--God isn't going to fight those battles for
us.
Since the Church is an organization of humans (whatever else it might be)
I think that comparing it to other human organizations is a fair
comparison. When the Church is compared to other human organizations, I
think it stacks up pretty well in terms of good wrought vs crimes
committed. I have mentioned the comparison between the Marxist state and
the Church in other postings. I doubt people will disagree that the
Church wins that one. I think it is a fair comparison because the Marxist
state held so much "promise" by its own lights and it failed rather
spectacularly. Another reason that I think the Marxist state to be a good
control is that it sought to eliminate the practice of Christianity and
Christians were consciously discriminated *against* when it was time to
fill governmental leadership positions. This is a good thing if
we are looking for a control because it makes it less likely that the
influence of Christians in the government would manifest itself. It would
be hard to distinguish the things the government of the US does from the
influence of Christian leaders and we would be arguing about it all day
long whether this good thing or that bad thing was done because of or in
spite of particular Christian leaders. I hope that last bit makes sense.
And I'm not saying let's not count the atrocities the Church has
committed, but then, let's not overlook the good that it has done, either.
Russell:
> This is not to say that Christianity has not helped you, or Jim, or Bill,
> or numerous other people. But that doesn't mean that it's for everybody.
The only reason we think it *is* for everybody is that Christians think
that everyone is meant (by God) to be united with Him in Heaven and Jesus
said that He was "the Way the Truth and the Life" and nobody gets "to the
Father except by Me (Jesus, the 2nd person of the Trinity)" I think in
some instances, this doesn't mean that a person must call themselves a
Christian to eventually reach union with God, but that if one does reach
union with God, the 2nd person of God, the Logos, had to help that person.
In another place Christ said "Many are called but few are chosen" but
I think that is from the perspective of God--even one out of Heaven is too
many.
I realize this is an argument from an authority you don't recognize; I'm
just trying to relate how some of us see it.
Peace,
Gene
PS. I like your new signature.
-- ____________________________________________________________Gene D. Godbold, Ph.D. Lab: 804 924-5167Research Associate Desk: 804 243-2764Div. Infectious Disease/Dept. Medicine Home: 804 973-6913and Dept. Microbiology Fax: 804 924-7500MR4 Bldg, Room 2115 email: anselm@virginia.edu300 Park Place Charlottesville, VA 22908 """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""