Gene: I cannot see how a materialist ethic like socialism can provide any
"oughts"-- any reasons to do good things for your fellow men.
We disagree. The belief that one should help those who are less fortunate
that you are and the socialist idea of a equal society are hardly
opposites.
Gene: I think your grandparents were *better* than their philosophy, or
rather that their philosophy, in encouraging self-sacrificing virtue, is
inconsistent
if based on materialist foundations (materialism: all there is is
matter). Certainly, observations alone could not have convinced them that
they *ought* to help a beleagured minority at the possible cost of their
own lives and freedom!
Are you sure about that ? I believe that it were observations as well as a
feeling of responsibility to help those in need which resulted in them
taking their actions. I also do not believe that self-sacrifice is
inconsistent if based on materialist foundations.
> Gene: And for every great saint, there are lots of little ones, giving
> smaller doses of their time and substance to those to whom they feel
> called. I read a recent article in Christianity Today that cited a study
> that the vast majority of volunteers in America volunteered because they
> felt a religious obligation to do so.
Pim:
> How interesting, an obligation which encourages volunteer actions.
Gene: By obligation, I meant a felt inner need which is encouraged by their
religious beliefs.
So there is an inner need ? Perhaps others are encouraged by other beliefs
than merely religious ones ?
Gen: Obviously, nobody is forcing them to do this (just in
case you had any doubts). Similarly your grandparents felt an obligation,
a moral one, to take in Jews persecuted by the Nazis. How was this moral
obligation consistent with their philosophy? I don't think it was, but
your grandparents, wisely and perhaps unconsciously, didn't worry about
that and did what their conscience told them was right and proper.
My grandparents believed in equality of all people and certainly felt that
those less fortunate than them should not be left to 'fend for themselves'.
> Gene: Tell me, what would incline a materialist to give of him or herself
> in this manner? What would incline them to put aside the calculation and
> the
Pim:
> What entices animals to have such behavior?
Gene: While animals might be observed doing things that *seem* self
sacrificing
in certain instances, one cannot observe their motivation.
The same applies to people. Perhaps it merely appears self sacrificing ?
Gene: It is certainly possible that they are obeying some instinct and
have no choice in the matter. Conversely, humans do appear to have
choices--we know this from our own experience of a conscience.
Perhaps humans and animals alike have instincts and choices ?
Gene: Your grandparents were *not* forced to take in those people--many
people in similar situations in your country did not do so. For these
reasons I think that the cases of animal self-sacrifice are not
necessarily helpful in a discussion of the reasons for human
self-sacrifice.
Why not ? You make it appear as if self sacrifice is something unique to
humans ? You already aluded to the existance of an inner need fortified by
religious beliefs. Similarly animal observations lead to the conclusion
that there is evidence of apparant self sacrifice by animals.
> Their deep religious convictions ? What about for instance Marxism as a
>motivation to help the needy ?
Gene: Yes. My question is how does Marxism, from its foundational
assumptions,
arrive at the moral obligation to help the needy.
Does not marxism believe in equality for all ?
Gene: (And I am going to mention only this once, in this thread with you,
that people saying that the philosophy of Marxism motivated them killed
over 80 *million* people this century. Christians have certainly
committed crimes that
reeked to high heaven in the name of Christianity, but they are dwarfed in
magnitude by the things accomplished by people in the last 75 years who
were *serving* mankind through Marxism)
People kill for many different reasons. If this is a standard to judge a
philosophy then christianity will have a hard time as well.
Pim:
> Of course one may ask which is a larger sacrifice, to spend one's life in
> a self-sacrificing way convinced that one will be rewarded later or to
> spend one's life in a self sacrificing manner without having such hopes ?
> Is the former even an example of self sacrifice if it is founded on the
> belief that it will be rewarded later ?
Gene: Just a thought to begin: In my experience, human psychology will not
support virtuous actions, if they are otherwise odious, with the
intellectual conviction of a reward if it is long delayed.
I disagree, it depends on the expected award. And after all how does one
know how long one has to live ?
Gene: This is especially true if it is of an indeterminate time (like
until I die!). So passion might support you in martyrdom, but it takes
something
stronger for a person to devote their lives to something (like taking care
of lepers in one of the worst slums on the planet or enduring persecution
to preach the gospel in China) not obviously enjoyable.
The expectation of a reward beyond comprehension would obviously be a
candidate.
Which makes me return to your suggestion about animals *seemingly* being
self sacrificing. Can we consider people who expect future return on their
investments, salf sacrificing ? A few years of misery in return for an
eternal life of returns of benifits ?
Gene: I can only say that for myself, I don't think much about being
"rewarded"
like with goodies or something. The presence of God will be the greatest
reward imaginable and the exploration of the mysteries of God will make
the exploration of the mysteries of science seem as less than dust and
ashes.
So being with your God would be important to you. What if you believed
that you needed some effort to be allowed this privilege ?
Gene: But this process doesn't just start in Heaven. It is happening in
my life and millions of lives now and proceeds every day. The ascent to
God began the moment I turned my life over to Him.
That is one interpretation of faith. But perhaps your future 'rewards' do
depend on more than merely accepting your God ?
Gene: If the presence of God is Heaven, then every good work manifests God
and
makes life more like Heaven for those who have accepted the sacrifice of
Christ.
So it is a return on investment based upon a religious belief.
Gene: (And I'm not limiting this observation to *only* the people who have
accepted Christ. Christians believe in the "third person" of God, the
Holy Spirit, who roams about quite unexpectedly and carries God's grace to
all sort of people who aren't Christian.)
Interesting and of course inevitable.
Gene: Peace and Grace to you (and your grandparents if they still
live--but I
think they do, even if they don't, if you understand me)
Both are still alive, one however passed away several years ago. If you
understand me...