> Gene, talking about self sacrifice:
> Is there any comparable reason an atheist would do such a thing? Are
> there any examples of atheists doing these things? If you give me time I
> bet I
>
> My grandparents ? They took in 5 jewish people during the occupation. They
> contribute more than 30 % of their (small) income to charity. And they did
> this out of a conviction that their good fortune had to be shared with
> those less fortunate and their political/philosophical background was
> socialism/communism and not religious. I have to admit that I am biased
> towards my grandparents but their actions should speak for themselves.
No, you are right, this is certainly a wonderful thing your grandparents
did. And if I read you right, they actually risked their lives for the
persecuted in taking in jews.
> Gene: could dig up at least 1000 Christians who have exhibited this kind
> of self-sacrificing love. Not only that, I think I could explain *why*
> they do it. I think the answers would be remarkably similar--because
> Jesus loves them, they are grateful for his love and grace and want to
> show it to those who don't
> have much.
>
> Gene: I can see how the love of Christ can lead to this self-sacrificing
> ethic.
> Sure, it's no guarantee but I could see why this could happen. But
> similarly a love of Mankind could lead to similar behavior.
I cannot see how a materialist ethic like socialism can provide any
"oughts"-- any reasons to do good things for your fellow men. I think
your grandparents were *better* than their philosophy, or rather that
their philosophy, in encouraging self-sacrificing virtue, is inconsistent
if based on materialist foundations (materialism: all there is is
matter). Certainly, observations alone could not have convinced them that
they *ought* to help a beleagured minority at the possible cost of their
own lives and freedom!
Understand that I am not criticizing your grandparents--their actions
certainly speak of heroism--I am just saying I can't see how the
philosophy that they presumably followed can logically reach the
conclusions that motivated your grandparents.
> Gene: And for every great saint, there are lots of little ones, giving
> smaller doses of their time and substance to those to whom they feel
> called. I read a recent article in Christianity Today that cited a study
> that the vast majority of volunteers in America volunteered because they
> felt a religious obligation to do so.
Pim:
> How interesting, an obligation which encourages volunteer actions.
By obligation, I meant a felt inner need which is encouraged by their
religious beliefs. Obviously, nobody is forcing them to do this (just in
case you had any doubts). Similarly your grandparents felt an obligation,
a moral one, to take in Jews persecuted by the Nazis. How was this moral
obligation consistent with their philosophy? I don't think it was, but
your grandparents, wisely and perhaps unconsciously, didn't worry about
that and did what their conscience told them was right and proper.
> Gene: Tell me, what would incline a materialist to give of him or herself
> in this manner? What would incline them to put aside the calculation and
> the
Pim:
> What entices animals to have such behavior?
While animals might be observed doing things that *seem* self sacrificing
in certain instances, one cannot observe their motivation. It is
certainly possible that they are obeying some instinct and have no choice
in the matter. Conversely, humans do appear to have choices--we know this
from our own experience of a conscience. Your grandparents were *not*
forced to take in those people--many people in similar situations in your
country did not do so. For these reasons I think that the cases of animal
self-sacrifice are not necessarily helpful in a discussion of the reasons
for human self-sacrifice.
Their deep religious
> convictions ? What about for instance Marxism as a motivation to help the
> needy ?
Yes. My question is how does Marxism, from its foundational assumptions,
arrive at the moral obligation to help the needy. (And I am going to
mention only this once, in this thread with you, that people saying
that the philosophy of Marxism motivated them killed over 80 *million*
people this century. Christians have certainly committed crimes that
reeked to high heaven in the name of Christianity, but they are dwarfed in
magnitude by the things accomplished by people in the last 75 years who
were *serving* mankind through Marxism)
> Gene: career advancement to go serve the downtrodden with no expectation
> of reward? I'm not trying to make a rhetorical point here, I really do
> want to know. For the Christian, the practice of virtue really is its own
> reward: Not only is it the proper response of our Lord to the grace he has
> given us, but it is also preparing us for what life will be like in
> Heaven. I don't see how a materialist could think that such a practice
> could be other than vanity--futility.
Pim:
> Of course one may ask which is a larger sacrifice, to spend one's life in
> a self-sacrificing way convinced that one will be rewarded later or to
> spend one's life in a self sacrificing manner without having such hopes ?
> Is the former even an example of self sacrifice if it is founded on the
> belief that it will be rewarded later ?
Just a thought to begin: In my experience, human psychology will not
support virtuous actions, if they are otherwise odious, with the
intellectual conviction of a reward if it is long delayed. This is
especially true if it is of an indeterminate time (like until I die!). So
passion might support you in martyrdom, but it takes something
stronger for a person to devote their lives to something (like taking care
of lepers in one of the worst slums on the planet or enduring persecution
to preach the gospel in China) not obviously enjoyable.
I can only say that for myself, I don't think much about being "rewarded"
like with goodies or something. The presence of God will be the greatest
reward imaginable and the exploration of the mysteries of God will make
the exploration of the mysteries of science seem as less than dust and
ashes. But this process doesn't just start in Heaven. It is happening in
my life and millions of lives now and proceeds every day. The ascent to
God began the moment I turned my life over to Him. This process has
changed me and continues to change me and I see how the fruit of this
faith is virtue and good works. So doing good things is its own reward
outside of any "other" reward. Or if you like, how about this
formulation:
If the presence of God is Heaven, then every good work manifests God and
makes life more like Heaven for those who have accepted the sacrifice of
Christ.
(And I'm not limiting this observation to *only* the people who have
accepted Christ. Christians believe in the "third person" of God, the
Holy Spirit, who roams about quite unexpectedly and carries God's grace to
all sort of people who aren't Christian.)
Pim:
> I am still trying to understand
> what a materialist's beliefs are though. Perhaps someone could provide
> some references to materialist philosophy?
I am not the expert on this. I think there was a Greek guy--Lucretius?
who professed a materialist philosophy in ancient times. The Stoics were
semi-materialists and skeptics of life after death. In this century,
Bertrand Russell was a materialist philosopher and there are strains of
materialism in the logical positivists I think, though I am not sure that
this is a necessary thing. B.F. Skinner was a materialist who formulated
behavioral determinism as a sort of psychology. I hope I am not mangling
these things and will bow to the correction of wiser heads than I in this
matter.
Peace and Grace to you (and your grandparents if they still live--but I
think they do, even if they don't, if you understand me)
-- ____________________________________________________________Gene D. Godbold, Ph.D. Lab: 804 924-5167Research Associate Desk: 804 243-2764Div. Infectious Disease/Dept. Medicine Home: 804 973-6913and Dept. Microbiology Fax: 804 924-7500MR4 Bldg, Room 2115 email: anselm@virginia.edu300 Park Place Charlottesville, VA 22908 """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""