> At 06:08 PM 2/14/97, Randy Landrum wrote:
>
> >Polystrate trees which extend through more than one layer (hence the name
> >""poly-strate"-meaning "many strata") in effect "tie the layers together"
> >into a short period of time. This period of time can't be explicitly
> >determimed from the data, but it is wholly imcompatible with the long-age
> >model normally taught.
> >
> This simply isn't true. As I have mentioned many times trees buried in
> riverine floods will become polystrate as long as there were surges in the
> current's flow during the burial. This will create layers of sandy shale or
> shaly sand etc.
>
> It is not true to say that it is totally incompatible.
>
That is your opinion Glenn and while I may respect and defend your right
to state it I happen to disagree. I am don't wish to be dragged into one
of your debates.
> >Page 101 The Young Earth by John D. Morris, Ph.D.
> >
> >While you are pulling out your copy maybe you should take a look at
> >several of the pictures of examples of polystrate tree extending from coal
> >to overlying shale, and polystrate tree spanning two narrow coal seams and
> >the intervening shale. Photo by Andrew Snelling. Before you ask no I was
> >not present for the photos.
>
> Do you read what anyone else writes? A month ago I answered this question.
> **
John Morris is not the only Bible believing creationist. Let me provide
you with a list:
Antiseptic surgery, Joseph Lister
Bacteriology, Louis Pasteur
Calculus, Isaac Newton
Celestial Mechanics, Johannes Kepler
Chemistry, Robert Boyle
Comparative Anatomy, Georges Culvier
Computer Science, Charles Babbage
Dimensional Analysis, Lord Rayleigh
Dynamics, Isaac Newton
Electronics, John Ambrose Fleming
Electrodynamics, James Clerk Maxwell
Electromagnetics, Michael Faraday
Energetics, Lord Kelvin
Entomology of Living Insects, Henri Fabre
Field Theory, Michael Faraday
Fluid Mechanics, George Stokes
Galactic Astronomy, Sir William Herschel
Gas Dynamics, Robert Boyle
Genetics, Gregor Mendel
Glacial Geology, Louis Agassiz
Gynecology, James Simpson
Hydrography, Matthew Maury
Hydrostatics, Blaise Pascal
Ichthyology, Louis Agassiz
Isotopic Chemistry, William Ramsey
Model Analysis, Lord Rayleigh
Natural History, John Ray
Non-Euclidean Geometry, Bernard Riemann
Oceanography, Matthew Maury
Optical Mineralogy, David Brewster
And it goes on. All of these founders were Bible believers and believers
in creation.
>
> John Morris gives a photo of such a tree "spanning two narrow coal seams and
> the intervening shale." This can be explained as could happen with the
> Mississippi floods of 1993 where a tree growing in a peat rich swamp was
> buried by shale or sand and then the swamp continues above all this. This is
> not a case of a polystrate tree going through several seams of coal. His
> example does not damage the conventional view of geology. What is needed to
> make a problem is for one tree to go through at least 3 coals. I would find
> it difficult to explain this situation. Maybe Art Chadwick can think of a
> situation where a tree could go through three or more coal seams. I can't.
Well Glenn you are going to believe what you wish no matter what. I can
see it is a fruitless endeavor showing you evidence which you refuse to
see. Rather than waisting your and my time I will just let you have the
last word.
>
> This is where John's lack of geological knowledge shows through.
>
> I know that John goes around calling himself a geologist, but his degree is
> an Engineering degree, His Masters was concerned with building a tidal Dam
> across the Bay of Fundy and referenced exactly 1 geological book. His PhD
> dissertation concerned compressing coaldust into pellets so it could be
> burned. It also references exactly 1 geological reference. The degree was
> granted by the engineering department, not the geological department.
>
> In 1986 I gave a paper at the Inter. Conf. On Creationism in Pittsburgh.
> John came up on stage to challenge what I had just said. He claimed to have
> been in the oil indistry. I asked him what oil company he had worked for.
> I am going to let an account of this published in the Skeptical Inquirer in
> late 86 or early 87. It was written by Robert Schadewald. He writes,
>
> "John Morris went to the microphone and identified himself as a petroleum
> geologist. He questioned Morton's claim that pollen grains are found in salt
> formations, and accused Morton of sounding like an anticreationist, raising
> more problems than his critics could respond to in the time available.
> Morris said that the ICR staff is working on these problems all the time.
> He told Morton to quit raising problems and start solving them.
> "Morton chopped him off at the ankles. Two questions, said Morton:
> 'What oil company did you work for?' Well, uh, actually Morris never worked
> for an oil company, but he once taught petroleum engineering at the
> University of Oklahoma. Second, How old is the Earth?' 'If the earth is
> more than 10,000 years old then Scripture has no meaning.' Morton then said
> that he had hired several graduates of Christian Heritage College, and that
> all of them suffered severe crises of faith. The were utterly unprepared to
> face the geologic facts every petroleum geologist deals with on a daily
> basis. Morton neglected to add that ICR is much better known for ignoring
> or denying problems than dealing with them."
>
> I have the encounter on video tape and it can be purchased from the ICC in
> Pittsburgh. Why would a guy try to say he was in the oil industry when he
> wasn't?
>
I don't know Glenn the next time I see him I will find out. I do know that
John is a Christian I have never known him to attack another Christian the
way you have just done. I am sorry that christians cannot just agree to
disagree. If you have a problem with parts of the Bible which say the
world was covered with water maybe you should take up secular humanism.
Morris is defending the Bible not that it needs to be defended. You seem
to be trying to pick it apart. John is not perfect and neither am I only
God is perfect and it's his book I accept not some socialized version of
secular science.
> >"Everywhere we looked, we found polystrate fossils protruding up through
> >several limestone layers each. These were not large trees, but fossilized
> >reed-like creatures called Calamities, in some cases up to six inches in
> >diameter, but usually just an inch or so. These segmented "stems" were
> >evendently quite fragile once dead, for they are usually found in tiny
> >fragments. Obviously, the limestones couldn't have accumulated slowly and
> >gradually around a still-growing organism, but must have been quite
> >rapidly deposited in a series of underwater events."
>
> Randy, John Morris does not give any locations for these things. In this
> last citation, John says of the location "In one location in Oklahoma,..."
> That is it! I grew up in Oklahoma and I can tell you, it is a big place and
> it would be extremely difficult to find the location that John is referring
> to, if it even exists. A creationist should know that people would want to
> check on the facts and so they should provide documentation and locations.
> Morris never does this very simple thing which would bolster his case. A
> gentleman who says he is a geologist and was in the oil industry, but who
> isn't and wasn't needs to have his statements verified beforebelieving them.
> If you don't give locations, how can one go look and see if John is
> correct? I can say the third planet around alpha centauri is made of sour
> cream, but you can't check me out. Science allows the possibility of
> checking on the facts.
>
Since you have the book Glenn just what do you see on page 101? I admit I
wished I was there and I would have a much better photograph but I still
see an example of a Polystrate tree spanning two narrow coal seams.
I am sure since you already know Dr Morris he would be happy to tell you
exactly where you can find one.
-Randy