>On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Glenn Morton wrote:
>
>> Two weeks ago in response to my assertion that there was no case of a
>> polystrate tree beginning in a coal seam, going through a coal seam and
>> ending in a coal seam, I had asked,
>>
>> >Can you provide a reference for the polystrate tree through several
strata of
>> > coal?
>>
>
>I am wondering if you understood the meaning of polystrate?
>
I know what polystrate fossils are. The term comes from poly meaning many,
strate being the proper form for strata in this context. Fossils which pass
through many strata.
Rupke gives the original definition.
"One of those conditions is displayed by a goup of fossils in what I
propose to call a 'polystrate position.' By this concept is meant the
fossil remains of huge animals and petrified tree-trunks, extending through
a thick bed or, properly speaking, through two or more strata of sedimentary
rock." N.A. Rupke, "Prolegomena to a Study of Cataclysmal Sedimentation,"
>Quarterly of the Creation REsearch Society, Vol. 3. (May 1966) p. 21
I had read Rupke's article years ago but had never kept a copy so I had to
go get it again when you cited it.
Now, my question was:Can you provide a reference for the polystrate tree
through several strata of coal?
Coal is a sedimentary strata. I wanted to know if any fossil tree was
observed going from one coal seam, through an entire coal seam, ending in
another.. You have not provided an example.
>>
>> At 03:34 PM 1/29/97 , Randy Landrum wrote:
>>
>> >As I stated earlier this is not at all an unusual phemomenon, but is quite
>> >common. N.A. Rupke, of Princeton, has given numerous examples.
>> >
>> >N.A. Rupke, "Prolegomena to a Study of Cataclysmal Sedimentation,"
>> >Quarterly of the Creation REsearch Society, Vol. 3. (May 1966), pp. 16-37
>> >
>> >Also try F.M. Broadhurst, "Some Aspects of the Paleoecology of Non-Marine
>> >Faunas and Rates of Sedimentation in the Lancashire Coal Measures,"
>> >American Journal of Science, Vol 262 p.865
>>
>> The only reason I am opening an old topic is that I just finally got the two
>> articles mentioned above. What I found in those two articles was that not
>> one example of a polystrate tree as proposed above is given.
>>
>
>"In 1959 Broadhurst and Magraw described a fossilized tree, in position of
>growth, from the Coal measures at Blackrod near Wigan in Lancashire. This
>tree was preserved as a cast, and the evidence available suggested that
>the cast was at least 38 feet in height. The original tree must have been
>surrounded and buried by sediment which was compacted before the bulk of
>the tree decomposed so that the cavity vacated by the trunk could be
>occupied by new sediment which formed the cast. this implies a rapid rate
>of sedimentation around the original tree."
>
>F.M. Broadhurst, "Some Aspects of the Paleoecology of Non-Marine Faunas
>and Rates of Sedimentation in the Lancashire Coal Measures," American
>Journal of Science, Vol. 262 (Summer 1964),p.865
>
>"It is clear that trees in position of growth are far from being rare in
>Lancashire (Teichmuller, 1956, reaches the same conclusion for similar
>trees in the RheinWestfalen Coal Measures), and presumably in all cases
>there must have been a rapid rate of sedimentation."
>
This is entirely true that rapid sedimentation is required. But rapid
sedimentation in and of itself does not prove a global flood. It proves a
local catastrophe, nothing more.
>F.M. Broadhurst
>
>There are many other evidences that coal seams were formed rapidly,
>probably by transportation of massed plant accumulations by flooding
>waters, interspersed by alternative flows of sand or silt or lime mud from
>other directions. These are listed as follows, without comment or
>documentation although such could be procvided, if needed see Stuart E.
>Nevins, "Stratigraphic Evidence of the Flood," in Symposium on Creation
>#III (Grand Rapids, Baker Book House, 1971)p. 44-46 59
>
Stuart Nevins was Steve Austin.
>a. Fossil trees are sometimes found standing on an angle and even upside
>down in the coal seams.
So? Examine pictures of a log jam on a river. The logs go every which way.
The logs in the Mt. St. Helens area after the explostion went everywhich
way. This does not prove a global flood. Go look at the picture on page 166
in Volcano, Time life books 1982.
>
>b. Coal seams occasionally split into two seams separated by transported
>marine sediments.
Go look at the Mississippi River delta. There are broad areas which are
receiving organic rich material (not enough to make coal but the principle
is the same). Generally speaking the land is sinking down there. Parts of
New Orleans is now below sea level where it used to be above just 150 years
ago. Consider the map below * are areas receiving organic material; R is the
river channel and S is the sediment dump on top of the organics. This is
what the area might look like before a local flood.
****************************************
****************************************
***************************************
****************************************
****************************************
****************************************
****************************************
RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
****************************************
****************************************
****************************************
****************************************
****************************************
****************************************
Now when a flood comes, if only part of the area is covered with sediment
but not enough sediment to get rid of the swamp, then it will look like. A
and B are markers only to be used later.
****************************************
*************************************ss
*****************************sssssssss
**************************ssssssssss
A**********************ssssssssssssB
**********************ssssssssssss
********************ssssssssssssss
RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
****************************************
****************************************
****************************************
****************************************
****************************************
****************************************
So now you have incipient coal below the sediment, s, which connects with
the incipient coal *** upstream of s. Since it is still a swamp, new
organic material begins to be deposited on top of the s. The map will once
again look like the first one. As the land sinks,a new coal forms.
Eventually all is covered by sediment and the coal formation stops.
Now lets cut the sediment in a line from A to B and see what it looks like.
***********************************************************
**********************************ssssssssssssssssss
***********************************************************
This is one coal seam splitting into two. Big deal. We see this happening
with organic rich shales today.
>
>c. Marine fossils - tubeworms, sponges, corals, mollusks, etc., - are
>often found in coal beds.
>
Steve cites Harold Coffin, saying that spirorbis is never found in
freshwater. There are two problems with this. First, this reference is not
to any scientific literature but to an article in the Creation Research Soc.
Quarterly. Considering that they have published articles arguing for a
geocentric universe, I find it a dubious source. Secondly, the fossil tube
worms may have had a different salt tolerance than those today. The ones
found fossilized are not the same species as those of today.
>d. Many coal seams have no sign of a fossil soil under them. Th
>"underclays" sometimes cited are not true soils, with a soil profile, and
>most authorities now believe they are transported materials.
A soil profile requires that the soil be above water level. Since swamps
aren't above water level, they are not drained and the successively deeper
erosion and mineralogical changes are less pronounced than what happens in
your yard.
Secondly
"The root system likewise was peculiar, the main trunk roots
spreading almost horizontally without a tap root; moreover, they
branched but a few times and were stubby and thick. The real
rootlets sprang directly from the sides of these trunk roots,
radiating thickly away to a distance of several inches. Such
root stocks, known as stigmaria (Fig. 147), are common in fire
clays under coal beds and not infrequently appear in the
coal."~Charles Schuchert and Carl O. Dunbar, Text-book of
Geology, (New York: John Wiley and Sons, Inc., 1933), p. 261
Why are the roots common if the underclays were not where the tree roots
grew? In a global flood the roots should come with the trees and the trees
are in and above the coal. But the roots are under the coal.
>
>e. Large boulders are often found in coal beds.
Floods along rivers can bring fairly large size material and dump it into a
swamp. then the organic deposition can continue and cover the rock. Voila,
you have a rock in a coal seam. Are you aware that many of these rocks have
fossils in them? According to flood theory the fossils are the result of
the Flood, so we should not find fossils in erratic rocks like this. This
is a common phenomenon in conglomerates.
>
>f. The so-called stigmaria, sometimes cited as roots of the coal-seams
>trees, have been shown by Rupke to be fragments unattached to specific
>trees and actually transported into place by water currents.
>
>N.A. Rupke, "Sedimentary Evidence for the Allochthonous Origin of
>Stigmaria, Carboniferous, Nova Scotia," Bulletin, Geological Society of
>America, Vol.80(1969),pp.2109-2114.
Read that article carefully. This is not true. Rupke clearly states:
The specimens of Stigmaria under consideration do not occur in typical
underclays. The origin of underclays is therefore not dealt with in this
paper." p 2109.
You can not apply what Rupke says to coal underclays.
>
>-Randy
>
>
>
glenn
Foundation, Fall and Flood
http://www.isource.net/~grmorton/dmd.htm