>Randy Landrum quoted Michael Denton, viz:
>
><<>"The intuitive feeling that pure chance could never have achieved the
>degree of complexity and ingenuity so ubiquitous in nature has been a
>continuing source of scepticism ever since the publication of the Origin
>of the Species; and throughout the past century there has always existed a
>significant minority of first-rate biologists who have never been able to
>bring themselves to accept the validity of Darwinian claims...>>
>
>Brian D. Harper responded:
>
><<This is very nice, Randy, but its a strawman since Darwinians do
>not claim that pure chance "achieved the degree of complexity and
>ingenuity so ubiquitous in nature".>>
>
>Actually, Darwin himself expressed a similar sentiment to Denton's:
>
>"Although the belief that an organ so perfect as the eye could have been
>formed by natural selection, is enough to stagger anyone...I have felt the
>difficulty far too keenly to be surprised at others hesitating to extend the
>principle of natural selection to so startling a length." [From Origin of
>Species, quoted in Denton @ 61]
>
First of all, Darwin says nothing about pure chance in this passage.
Secondly, this is probably the most outrageous out of context
quotation I've ever seen. First, let's look at what immediately follows
the first section of Denton's quote, just before the ellipses:
Although the belief that an organ so perfect as the eye could have
been formed by natural selection, is more than enough to stagger any
one; yet in the case of any organ, if we know of a long series of
gradations
in complexity, each good for its possessor, then, under changing
conditions of life, there is no logical impossibility in the
acquirement of any conceivable degree of perfection through natural
selection. -- Darwin OoS. Penguin Classics p. 231
This occurs on page 231 of my copy of OoS (Penguin Classics). I encountered
some difficulties finding what follows the ellipses in Denton's quote since,
naturally enough, I was reading *forward* from p. 231 whereas what follows
the ellipses actually occurs *before* page 231, on page 219 !
He who will go thus far, if he find on finishing this treatise that
large bodies of facts, otherwise inexplicable, can be explained by
the theory of descent, ought not to hesitate to go further, and
to admit that a structure even as perfect as the eye of an an eagle
might be formed by natural selection, although in this case he does
not know any of the transitional grades. His reason ought to
conquer his imagination; though I have felt the difficulty far too
keenly to be surprised at any degree of hesitation in extending
the principle of natural selection to such startling lengths.
-- Darwin OoS. Penguin Classics pp. 218-219.
Reads a little differently in context, don't you think?
What really staggers the imagination is how anyone would, after
seeing the above, consider Denton as a credible source of information.
>That's the crux of the matter. Whether you use "random" or "chance" or some
>other form of expression, the idea behind evolution is that UN-guided
>processes can produce overwhelming complexity. Mutations ARE random--no one
>denies that. The selection by nature is based upon utility and advantage,
>true, but it is still a random search among the the "raw mistakes." It does
>not anticipate, plan or pursue...it merely wanders, and eventually strikes.
>
I'm not sure what all this has to do with anything. The words one uses
do matter. Denton said pure chance. The process involving random
mutations + natural selection is not pure chance plain and simple.
Denton is knocking down a strawman.
[...]
>
>And what Behe has done is push the complexity envelope beyond anything known
>to Darwin, or even Denton. The PROBABILITY of evolution drops precipitously.
>At some point, we've just got to recognize the obvious and look elsewhere for
>answers.
>
Jim, what is the PROBABILITY of evolution? I mean, just roughly, to within
say 10 orders of magnitude. Please show your work.
Brian Harper | "If you don't understand
Associate Professor | something and want to
Applied Mechanics | sound profound, use the
The Ohio State University | word 'entropy'"
| -- Morrowitz
Bastion for the naturalistic |
rulers of science |