>On the *very next page* after he addresses the mousetrap question, Behe
>allows a non-living system to reproduce, via production in a factory and
>small "mutations" in the manufacturing process. His argument was that *in
>spite of* the reproduction and mutation, the gap between one system (a
>bicycle) and another (a motorcycle) was so great as to rule out the
>possibility of gradualistic Darwinian descent.
Steve Clark wrote.
>This is a good question Andy. I believe the confusion here lies in the
>requirement for the proto-structure to have a similar function as the final
>structure. Why is this required? If we can agree that a proto-mousetrap
>does not have to necessarily trap mice, then this confusion is minimized.
>For a simple exercise, let's look at evolution in the forward direction.
>Say you take a motorcycle and add wings to it. It is now an airplane, but
>it never "evolved" into an airplane by gradually improving on its ability to
>fly.
At the risk of being Rube Goldbergish again, Steve's suggestion that the new
structure does not have to fulfill the final purpose is a useful one.
Evolution says that pathways exist from simple to more complex objects which
can be reached by small changes. At least that is what Neo-Darwinism says.
Consider this bicycle: Behe believes that it can not be evolved into a
motorcycle. I can show a pathway which improves the efficiency of the bike at
every step of the way or leaves it the same. It is the improvement of
efficiency of locomotion which is considered. Behe says that a factory process
with mutations couldn't do it because the path doesn't exist. A path does
exist. Below is for illustrative purposes that such a path does exist.
Whether or not it would be taken is another question.
Disclaimer: Bicycles do not reproduce so can not do this
in the real world (I had one guy privately challenge me to really evolve a
mousetrap). The only reason Mike says that there is no pathway is that he
hasn't tried to think of one.
Many of the objects on this pathway served other purposes at first but were
modified to work in new ways.
Some of this I will have to describe in words as ascii pictures won't work
Start with a bicycle with a chain and a kickstand
___
/___ W
| |
|------------|
______ |\ |\ _______
/ \ / \ | \/G \
/ / \ \ | / \ \
| / | \____^|^ ^^^^\> |
| . | Ivvvvvv > |
\ / I \ vvvvv /
\ / I \ / Where v,^ and > is te chain.
------ I ----- G is the generator for the lights
Place a tank of water on the handle bar for the rider to drink from without
having to stop. This improves distance that the rider can travel.
Then mutate the pedal gear to put small cups on the pedal gear so that water
can fall from a leak in the water tank into the cups, giving the rider a
little extra energy of locomotion. Cup spills its contents like water mill on
back side of circuit.
___
/___ W
| |
|------------|
______ |\___tank____|\ _______
/ \ / \ .| \/G \
/ / \ \ .| / \ \
| / | \____U|^ ^^^^\> |
| . | Ivvvvvv > |
\ / I \ vvvvv /
\ / I \ / Where v,^ and > is te chain.
------ I ----- where U is the cup on the pedal gear
and .. is water drops
Change liquid from water to gasoline--no change in efficiency.
Move wires from lights to be near the little cup.
Let the gap between the wires mutate until the distance is such to allow a
spark to jump between them. Place the wires when the U is facing down so that
the explosion doesn't burn the rider up.
This results in an explosion of the gasoline in the cup, pushing the pedal
gear by hot gases escaping cup.
Attach a capacitor to the generator so that the spark only occurs when the
capacitor charges to spark point. Let this spark point mutate until it gets
in time with the pedal gear.
Put bellows onto lower bar and pump it by means of the pedal gear. Escaping
air cools the leg of the rider. This solves the problem of the hot metal cup
heating the leg of the rider.
(The bellows evolved independently for other purposes but now joins in a
symbiotic relationship with the bicycle. The bicycle powers the bellows and
the bellows cools the rider's leg)
___
/___ W
| |
|------------|
______ |\___tank____|\ _______
/ \ / \ .| \/GC \
/ / \ \ ===.| / \ \
| / | \B---U|^ ^^^^\> |
| . | Ivvvvvv > |
\ / I \ vvvvv /
\ / I \ / Where v,^ and > is te chain.
------ I ----- where U is the cup on the pedal gear
C is the capacitor
and .. is water drops
The bellow is like this:
=====
B----
Bellows B
Piston ----
Pipe conducting cool air ====
Bellow needs to be steel and have valves to make it more efficient. It now
becomes a piston bellows.
Attach rubber hose to leaking gasoline to better control the landing of the
drips.
Move generator to belows piston.
___
/___ W
| |
|------------|
______ |\___tank____|\ _______
/ \ / \ "| \/ \
/ / \ \ ==="| / \ \
| / | \BG--U|^ ^^^^\> |
| . | C Ivvvvvv > |
\ / I \ vvvvv /
\ / I \ / Where v,^ and > is te chain.
------ I ----- where U is the cup on the pedal gear
" is hose for gasoline
Attach second set of wires to bellows. They are currently useless, a
defective mutation.
Attach gas hose to one half of the bellows intake valve, leave the other half
open for intake of air. When valve closes,
You now have a partially working motor cycle.
___
/___ W
| |
|------------|
______ |\___tank____|\ _______
/ \ / \ ====="| \/ \
/ / \ \ " ===| / \ \
| / | "BG--U|^ ^^^^\> |
| . | C Ivvvvvv > |
\ / I \ vvvvv /
\ / I \ / Where v,^ and > is te chain.
------ I ----- where U is the cup on the pedal gear
" is hose for gasoline
Now you can drop the cup U.
A path exists. Because of this, you can not say, as Maatman said today, "that
no gradualistic evolutionary route is possible." This pathway may be
improbable and might never be taken but it IS a pathway.
Note also the changed function. The generator ran lights but now sparks the
cylinder. The tank held water for drinking but now holds gas. The bellows
was used to cool the leg, but now is a cylinder.
glenn
Foundation,Fall and Flood
http://members.gnn.com/GRMorton/dmd.htm