While I have never seen you change your mind on anything, I will lay out once
again the evidence for the transitional forms between fish and amphibian. I
do not intend to get into a debate with you about this since it probably would
serve no purpose and I don't have the time right now. I am doing other
things.
By the way, I noticed that you didn't tell me one fact which would disprove
the 2-Adam theory. Is there any fact which would disprove that view?
You write:
>Note: I do not rule out that tetrapods may have descended from an
>unknown fish common ancestor. But I do dispute that it is quite as
>"smooth" as some evolutionists like to portray it.
>
You sure put on a good appearance of ruling out any form of evolution.
Here is the data references are provided so that one can look it up for
themselves:
378 MYR ago- Pandericthys--These are lobe-finned fish. Their brain case is so
much like that of the earliest tetrapod, they were originally classified as
tetrapods until a complete skeleton was found. Then is was proven that they
were really still fish. (Ahlbert and Milner, 1994, p. 508). This fish also
had lungs and nostrils (Schultz and Trueb, 1991, p.87) These things really
looked like tetrapods until you see the fins. The teeth had infolding enamel
which is identical to that of the earliest tetrapods. Unlike all fish but like
the tetrapods, the Panderichthys have lost the dorsal and anal fins, leaving 4
fins in the place where legs would be in the Tetrapods.(Ahlberg and Milner, p.
508. This contradicts Gish's claim that there is no fossil which shows loss of
fins. (Gish, 1978, p. 78-79)
368 MYR-Ichthyostega-- much like Acanthostega but has 7 digits on his
hindlimb. He has lungs. His legs were only good for being in water. They could
not support his weight. (Coates and Clack, 1990, p. 67)
362 MYR- Acanthostega- has four legs, lungs but still has gills. (Coates and
Clack , 1991, p. 234) He has 8 digits on his front leg. His legs could not
support his weight either. (Coats and Clack, 1990, p. 66-67). He has fishlike
lower arm bones (Coates and Clack 1990, p. 67)
558-552 MYR A fossil found in Pennsylvania which is the second oldest
amphibian, has only lungs and no gills and is fully capable of walking on
land. (Washington Post, 117:(239): A2, Mnday Aug. 1, 1994)
Stephen, the transition can be no smoother than the number of fossil forms we
have. We don't have a lot so the sampling is not as smooth as you seem to
think it must be.
glenn
Alberg and Milner, "The origin and Early Diversitfication of Tetrapods,"
Nature April 7, 1994.
Coates and Clack, "Polydactyly in the earliest Known Tetrapod limbs," Nature,
Sept 6, 1990, p. 66-67
Coates and Clack, "Fish-like Gills and breathing in the earliest known
Tetrapod," Nature, 352, July 18, 1991, p. 234-236
Gish, Evolution: the Fossils say No. 1978.
Schultz and Trueb, Origins of The Higher Groups of Tetrapods, Comstock Publ.
Assoc. 1991.
>Group
>
>On Mon, 12 Aug 1996 21:14:34, Glenn Morton wrote to Geoffrey Howells:
>
>GH>Does anyone know of any other good transitional fossils?
>
>GM>Yes I will send it to you and anyone else who wants it privately
>>because we had this argument here a year ago and I don't want to
>>rehash things. The fish tetrapod transition is quite smooth. Each
>>species is altered in a given portion of their anatomy. The last
>>fish had both gills and lungs, the first tetrapod had both gills and
>>lungs. The temporal order is also quite nice.
>
>That's interesting, because Johnson in 1993 cited Stahl as follows:
>
>"The story to be tested is that a fish species developed the ability
>to climb out of the water and move on land, while evolving the
>peculiar reproductive system of amphibians and other amphibian
>features more or less concurrently. No specific fossil fish species
>has been identified as an amphibian ancestor, but there is an extinct
>order of fish known as the rhipidistians which Darwinists frequently
>describe as an "ancestral group." The rhipidistians have skeletal
>features resembling those of early amphibians, including bones that
>look like they could have evolved into legs. But according to
>Barbara J. Stahl's comprehensive textbook, Vertebrate History,
>
> `none of the known fishes is thought to be directly ancestral to
> the earliest land vertebrates. Most of them lived after the
> first amphibians appeared and those that came before show no
> evidence of developing the stout limbs and ribs that
> charpacterized the primitive tetrapods.' (Stahl B.J.,
> "Vertebrate History: Problems in Evolution", Dover 1985, pp.
> 121-48)
>
>(Johnson P.E., "Darwin on Trial", InterVarsity Press" Downers Grove
>Ill., First Edition, 1991, p74)
>
>Harvard Professor of Paleontology Stephen Jay Gould savagedly
>reviewed Johnson's book in Scientific American (July 1992) and
>nit-picked every scientific point he could find. He even attacked a
>point on this page, but he did not contest the above. I therefore
>conclude that it is established fact.
>
>In the debate that Glenn refers to, the following quotes were
>posted, which throw doubt on Glenn's "quite smooth" "fish
>tetrapod transition":
>
>"The limbs, of course, occupy pride of place in any analysis of
>tetrapod origins. The pattern of internal structure of the
>osteolepiform limb as in _Eusthenopteron_ [cite omitted] and
>_Sterropterygion_ [cite omitted] is clearly homologous with that of
>tetrapods with respect to the humerus/femur or ulna and radius/tibia
>or fibula, but little else. It would also be a mistake to exaggerate
>the extent to which osteolepiform fishes actually used their fins as
>arms and legs; the fins in the forms that we know are all small and
>feeble (compared even with the large fins of porolepiforms,
>coelacanths, and the modern lungfish _Neoceratodus_, which have a
>different internal structure). These fishes obviously could not live
>out of water because they would suddenly be unsupported and feel the
>force of gravity." (Thomson K.S., "The origin of tetrapods,"
>_American Journal of Science_ (1993) 293-A:58)
>
>and:
>
>"In contrast, the earliest land vertebrates (for which there are
>skeletal remains, i.e., _Ichthyostega_, _Acanthostega_, and
>_Tulerpeton_) "had short but massive limbs of the basic pattern of
>subsequent tetrapods" (Robert L. Carroll, "The Primary Radiation of
>Terrestrial Vertebrates," _Annual Review of Earth Planet Science_
>[1992] 20:47). These differences are so significant that Dr.
>Carroll states that "no fossils are known that can be considered
>intermediate between these clearly aquatic [osteolepiform] fish and
>genera that are unequivocally classified as terrestrial verte-
>brates" (_Ibid_., 45)"
>
>Here is one of my own from Carroll:
>
>"The origin of amphibians...is certainly one of the most significant
>episodes in vertebrate history. The group from which they arose, the
>rhipidistian sarcopterygians, were common throughout the Devonian and
>lingered into the Lower Permian. Their structure is known in
>considerable detail (Andrews and Westoll, 1970). Genera in which the
>skeleton is appropriate for ancestors of amphibians are known from
>the middle Devonian, approximately 15 million years prior to the
>appearance of amphibians at the end of the Devonian (Jarvik, 1980).
>These early amphibians are also known in considerable detail. Their
>limbs have already achieved a typically tetrapod pattern. The
>remains of rhipidistian fish are common in Middle and Upper Devonian
>deposits that might be expected to yield the remains of ancestral
>amphibians, BUT NO FOSSIL IS KNOWN THAT COULD BE CONSIDERED
>INTERMEDIATE BETWEEN THESE TWO GROUPS." (Carroll, R.L., "Vertebrate
>Paleontology and Evolution", W. H. Freeman & Co: New York, 1988,
>p579. Emphasis mine)
>
>God bless.
>
>Steve
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>| Stephen E (Steve) Jones ,--_|\ sejones@ibm.net |
>| 3 Hawker Avenue / Oz \ Steve.Jones@health.wa.gov.au |
>| Warwick 6024 ->*_,--\_/ Phone +61 9 448 7439 (These are |
>| Perth, West Australia v my opinions, not my employer's) |
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>
Foundation,Fall and Flood
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