On Wed, 31 Jul 1996 11:08:20 -0400 (EDT), lhaarsma@OPAL.TUFTS.EDU wrote:
>On Thu, 25 Jul 1996, Stephen Jones wrote:
>LH>Philosophical scientISM (materialism) teaches that evolution is a
>mindless, purposeless process.
>Some scientISTS understand evolution as a mindless, purposeless process.
>Some people CLAIM that science teaches that evolution is a mindless,
>purposeless process.
>!!!!! BUT THAT ISN'T WHAT _SCIENCE_ REALLY SAYS !!!!!
>SJ> This is just semantics, grounded in shifting definitions of
>"science" and "evolution". I get constantly reminded by TEs that
>science must be methodologically naturalistic to be science at all:
LH>Not by this one you don't!
Good. So you don't claim that "science must be methodologically
naturalistic to be science at all"?
>LH>The scientific understanding of evolution is that it is a
>stochastic process in which events which are not caused by the
>organisms in question can affect their survival and/or their genetic
>information. But as we theists (and a few atheists) know, that is
>NOT necessarily the same as being a mindless, purposeless process.
>(Proberbs 16:33 again.)
>SJ> You are switching definitions here from:
>1. "what The scientific understanding of evolution is", ie.
>"stochastic process in which events which are not caused by the
>organisms in question can affect their survival and/or their genetic
>information"; to:
>2. what individual "theists" and "atheists" might understand
>evolution to be: "But as we theists (and a few atheists) know, that
>is NOT necessarily the same as being a mindless, purposeless
>process."
>This does not change, but rather confirms what I said, namely:
>"THE SCIENTIFIC UNDERSTANDING OF EVOLUTION is that it is a
>mindless, purposeless, materialistic natural process" (my emphasis)
LH>When a scientist says that evolution is a "stochastic process..."
>she is speaking within the bounds of science.
>When a scientist says that evolution is a "mindless, purposeless
>process..." she has stepped outside the bounds of science.
>When a scientist says that evolution is a "system which God designed,
>sustained, and guided..." she has stepped outside the bounds of science.
Not if "science" is defined as your National Academy of Sciences has
defined it, namely "naturalistic":
"...the most basic characteristic of science: [is] reliance upon
naturalistic explanations." (National Academy of Sciences, "Science
and Creationism: A View from the National Academy of Sciences",
1984, in Johnson P.E., "Darwin on Trial", InterVarsity Press: Downers
Grove Ill, Second Edition, 1993, p7-8)
If, therefore:
1. Science relies on "naturalistic explanations"; and
2. Evolution is science; then
3. Evolution must be explained as a naturalistic process. But
4. Naturalistic processes are purely physical (without mind or
purpose). Therefore
5. "evolution is a `mindless, purposeless process..."
LH>I'm not re-defining any words here. I'm using them the way most
>people use them, most of the time. Science isn't free from metaphysics
>and the demarcation is fuzzy, but scientists _can_ agree about the first
>statement while disagreeing about the second, third, and probably many
>other metaphysical perspectives compatible with the first statement.
I repeat: I do not claim that all "SCIENTISTS" believe that
"evolution is a mindless, purposeless, materialistic natural process"
but that "THE SCIENTIFIC UNDERSTANDING of evolution is that it is a
mindless, purposeless, materialistic natural process".
LH>It's true that the extra-scientific perspective of "mindless,
>purposeless process" has become sufficiently prevelant than a
>disturbingly large fraction of scientists are confusing it for
>science. That's not a new phenomenon.
Including the National Academy of Science it would seem?
LH>A few decades ago, extra-scientific logical positivism ruled the
>land, and was touted as THE scientific perspective. It wasn't, and
>the entire scientific community now realizes it.
No doubt. But we are discussing *naturalism* as "THE scientific
perspective".
God bless.
Steve
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