On Mon, 22 Apr 1996 15:06:34 -0400 Brian wrote:
BH>Since I am primarily an experimentalist I tend to view facts as
>analogous to experimental data, or observations if you will. There
>is tremendous evidence that macro-evolution has occurred.
>JH>Interesting claim. Could you point me to some sources which make
>a good case for this? I would be interested in reading them. What
>is your definition of macro-evolution?
BH>First, I don't want to get too caught up in definitions, so I'll
>loosely define macro-evolution as the origin of novelty.
This is too loose. Creation could also be "the origin of novelty".
What is the *unique*, non-circular, definition of "macro-evolution"
BH>New body plans, structures etc. Other things might qualify as
>macro-evolution as well and there may be many gray areas to argue
>about, but hopefully everyone agrees that the origin of novel
>structures, morphologies, body plans or whatever is macro-evolution.
No. "everyone" does not "agree that the origin of novel structures,
morphologies, body plans or whatever is macro-evolution." It is
what evolutionists *claim* is "macro-evolution", but that is not the
same as saying that these things *are* "macro-evolution". They could
equally be progressive creation.
BH>One reason I mentioned my own view on "facthood" is that it
>is undoubtedly tainted by my being an experimentalist :). I have
>found in the past the it is too rigid for most people's tastes.
>For example, according to my view I would have to say that the
>orbital period of pluto is not a fact ;-). Nevertheless I
>would take macro-evolution to be a fact because I consider
>the fossil record to be part of the "data".
The "fossil record" is the "fact", the evolutionists *interpretation*
of that "fact" is "macro-evolution".
BH>True, we have not directly observed most of the organisms
>contained in the record but surely we can agree that it is a fact
>that these organisms existed.
Which ones? Those we have not "directly observed"? If so, why is it
"a fact that these organisms existed"?
BH>If we agree on this then the facthood of macro-evolution follows
>immediately.
No. "macro-evolution" does not "follow" at all. It only "follows" if
other alternatives (eg. creation) are apriori ignored and if gaps in
the fossil record are filled in by imagination.
BH>As we go back in time, organisms change tremendously. There are
>features present in organisms today that have not always been
>present. Thus we establish the origin of novelty.
This is non-controversial. Of course there is an "origin of novelty"
and of course "organisms change" over "time". But this is not
necessarily "macro-evolution". It could be progressive creation, or
even something completely unknown.
BH>I know you probably want to protest vehemently against this :).
I suspect Brian is aware of the question-begging nature of his
argument.
BH>The motivation for my original question was to point out the
>difference between fact and theory. The purpose of a theory
>of evolution is try to explain these facts. There is a
>tendency to start accusing evolutionists of being sneaky
>with words at this point, for example I think Hugh Ross
>refers to this as "the shell game of evolution".
Brian has just confirmed Ross' description of "evolution" as a "shell
game"! :-) Note, I do *not* (an nor does Ross) accuse "evolutionists
of being sneaky".
BH>One reason for including the plasticity analogy is to show that
>this type of distinction between fact and theory is not unique to
>evolutionists. I would dare say it occurs in all of science.
Well, since we are often assured that the majority of scientists are
"evolutionists", that should not be surprising! :-)
Like James, I am still waiting for the "tremendous evidence that
macro-evolution has occurred"! :-)
God bless.
Steve
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