> SC>At this juncture, it seems to me that the important issue has to do with
> >the way that we view naturalistic explanations vs supernaturalitic ones, or
> >miracles. For a Christian, it would seem to me that one is no less
> >wonderous than the other.
>
JB> I agree. But it's a poor excuse to de-miracleize the Bible.
If we're going to use one-liners, let's keep them accurate.
Evolutionary creationism is not an attempt to "de-miraclize the Bible."
The entire concern is focused on one or two chapters. Specifically, the
issue is whether the mechanisms of "Let the land produce..." more
resembles "... your heavenly Father feeds them," or "Lazarus, come out."
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JB> A miracle is when the materialistic cause is insufficient to explain the
> effect. Often it is difficult to know all the materialistic causes, so we
> can't say whether a certain person's recovery in our church was a miracle.
> But when the Bible calls something a miracle (in so many words), then we
> should accept it.
I agree. Jesus pointed to his miracles as evidence that he was doing his
Father's work. The fact that they defied materialistic explanation was
important.
(Important caveat on the word, "explain": I assume we are only concerned
with explaining observed behavior, and not explaining total significance.)
I don't think the text of Genesis 1 implies "Let the earth bring forth..."
is any more miraculous or less naturalistic than "... let dry land
appear."
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JB> I'm still awaiting that list of miracles TEs believe are a part of
> origins. Maybe it already came, but I missed it because it's so short.
Here's the list of "essential miracles," as I see them:
1) The fact that anything exists at all. Some would call that _de_novo_
creation and associate that with the "Big Bang." I would also include the
CONTINUED existence of the universe.
2) God's revelatory acts towards developing humans which affected the
direction our development. (Personally, I would include in this
chategory: aspects of our personality, moral sense, religious sense, and
some consequences of human original sin, including the curse. Others may
choose different specifics.)
Those are two cases where, in your words, "materialistic causes are
insufficient to explain the effect." I'm open to the possibility of more
such miracles as a part of origins, but I await a convincing hermeneutical
or scientific argument. (For example, on the basis of Genesis 2, many
TE's would include a third essential miracle: the physical development of
humans.)
If we're going to take any items from Genesis 1 and add them to this list,
let's specify our criteria for determining which ones....
Loren Haarsma