Re: [asa] "Evolutionary Creation" book comments - REPOST with corrections

From: Jim Armstrong <jarmstro99@q.com>
Date: Tue Sep 29 2009 - 21:47:24 EDT

Your first sentence is precisely my point.  JimA [Friend of ASA]

Dehler, Bernie wrote:

Jim said:
"Science had neither defined nor differentiated itself in those days."

Science didn't have to differentiate itself, because it was integrated into their worldview.

Just like now if you write science fiction with a moral element to it, all the modern scientists could accept it.  But 100 years from now it would have a lot of glaring scientific errors... and the more you speculate on future science, the more you will be wrong.  For example, give your sci-fi story a lot of details in what dark matter is, then 100 years from now it will look really wrong (let alone, 4,000 years from now, like the time from Moses to us).

...Bernie

-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Jim Armstrong
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 8:49 PM
To: ASA
Subject: Re: [asa] "Evolutionary Creation" book comments - REPOST with corrections

I think you are dead on. John Walton, OT scholar from Wheaton presented
a lecture for Canyon Institute for Advanced Studies in Phoenix in 2006
titled, "Reading Genesis 1 with Ancient Eyes: What Does it Mean to
Create?"   In it, he discussed at some length this matter of ancient
perspective, and I believe he would agree entirely with your surmise
that the division implicit in those the two words would be
incomprehensible to those ancient eyes. Science had neither defined nor
differentiated itself in those days. Nor did they did think in
material terms per se, instead understanding everything as a part of
God's presence and activity in the world, what things and entities did, 
rather than what they were or were composed of. Walton mentions that 
"miracle" is a New Testament word, denoting a significant departure from 
what nature has the capacity to do on its own in the material world. In 
contrast, the OT terms are signs and wonders, and distinctly (he says) 
not about shuffling material things around, again because those ancient 
eyes and hearts (hearts being a western metaphor) do not have a 
framework at all like western material-based terminology and 
explanation. He suggested our traditional way of interpreting much of 
Gen. 1, for example, would fall on the ancient ears about as well as an 
explanation of daylight saving time.

JimA [Friend of ASA]

Murray Hogg wrote:
  

Hi Denis,

I actually wonder if using the terms "science" and "history" in this 
context isn't - in the end analysis - anachronistic.

I'd offer the observation that what "pre-modern" societies do is tell 
stories - they don't do "science", and they don't record "history". 
And if one can escape the need to force Genesis into either category, 
then the result is very liberating. One can even begin to read Genesis 
theologically as per the entire point of the narrative!

Here I think much benefit might be gained from a familiarity with the 
field of ethnohistory - which discipline gives some interesting 
insights into the way non-Western and pre-modern societies deal with 
their past. It's on my list of subjects to get around to "one day."

Actually, as I think about it, this might be more or less another way 
of putting your entreaty of "Separate, don't conflate", viz; if one 
can discriminate between "history", "science", and "story" -- where 
"story" is a way of conveying meaning (theological meaning in the case 
of Genesis) -- then one is, I think, well on the way to resolving the 
"problem" which arises in light of our modernist inability to see that 
there is more than one way of conveying spiritual truth.

Blessings,
Murray

Denis O. Lamoureux wrote:
    

Dear Bernie,
You are a scrapper my friend!

You write:
      

Ancient theological idea:
Adam was the first human to sin.

This statement is nothing but theology
        

NOT true.  It's ancient science (creation
and existence of Adam) delivering an inerrant
and Holy Spirit-inspired theology (sin is
very real and humans are sinners).

Bernie: Separate, Don't Conflate!

Best,
Denis
      

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To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message. Received on Tue Sep 29 21:48:18 2009