Re: [asa] "Evolutionary Creation" book comments (was: RE: (fall-away) TE and apologetics)

Very few see that an inerrancy which demands a young earth and no death
before Adam also demands a flat earth and a tree tier universe and a few
other things

This was all sorted by Augustine and others in the early church - or so
they thought

Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: "Denis O. Lamoureux" <dlamoure@ualberta.ca>
To: "Bill Powers" <wjp@swcp.com>
Cc: "Dehler, Bernie" <bernie.dehler@intel.com>; "asa" <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 11:45 PM
Subject: Re: [asa] "Evolutionary Creation" book comments (was: RE:
(fall-away) TE and apologetics)

> Dear Bill,
> You are not missing the point at all.
> In fact you got it completely.
>
> You wrote:
>> Or is this just a way of putting a spear between the two so we can say
>> that the science had changed, but the theology didn't?
>
> If we don't do this, then we will have
> to extend inerrancy to a 3-tier universe.
>
> The inerrant theology changes lives, not
> the firmament once believed to be over
> our heads.
>
> Best,
> Denis
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill Powers" <wjp@swcp.com>
> To: "Denis O. Lamoureux" <dlamoure@ualberta.ca>
> Cc: "Dehler, Bernie" <bernie.dehler@intel.com>; "asa" <asa@calvin.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 8:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [asa] "Evolutionary Creation" book comments (was: RE:
> (fall-away) TE and apologetics)
>
>
>>I know I'm missing the point. So perhaps I should not butt in.
>> But what does it matter whether we label it "science" or "theology"?
>> Ancient science or ancient theology?
>>
>> Or is this just a way of putting a spear between the two so we can say
>> that the science had changed, but the theology didn't? Or something of
>> the sort.
>>
>> Perhaps discussion is required to know how to distinguish theology from
>> science, e.g., by methodology, etc.
>>
>> bill
>>
>> On Sat, 26 Sep 2009, Denis O. Lamoureux wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Bernie,
>>> Physical death entering the world is not a theological statement,
>>> and thus it is not ancient theology. It's a statement about nature,
>>> an ancient understanding about the origin of physical death, according
>>> to ancient Hebrew science.
>>>
>>> Once again, you are committing the error of CONFLATION.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Denis
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dehler, Bernie"
>>> <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
>>> To: "asa" <asa@calvin.edu>
>>> Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 2:58 PM
>>> Subject: RE: [asa] "Evolutionary Creation" book comments (was: RE:
>>> (fall-away) TE and apologetics)
>>>
>>>
>>>> Denis said:
>>>> "Re-read my post. I gave you the answer."
>>>>
>>>> I disagree, Denis. You mentioned 'sin entering the world' and I
>>>> mentioned 'physical death entering the world.' I'm trying to give an
>>>> obvious example of 'ancient theology.'
>>>>
>>>> I think all TE's know that Adam did not bring physical death into the
>>>> world, and you made the point in your book that the Bible (Apostle
>>>> Paul) teaches explicitly that Adam brought physical death into the
>>>> world because of Adam's sin. So what prevents you from identifying
>>>> that as an "ancient theology?"
>>>>
>>>> ...Bernie
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Denis O. Lamoureux [mailto:dlamoure@ualberta.ca]
>>>> Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 1:41 PM
>>>> To: Dehler, Bernie; asa
>>>> Subject: Re: [asa] "Evolutionary Creation" book comments (was: RE:
>>>> (fall-away) TE and apologetics)
>>>>
>>>> Dear Bernie,
>>>> Want a "short" and "pithy answer"?
>>>> Re-read my post. I gave you the
>>>> answer.
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Denis
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dehler, Bernie"
>>>> <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
>>>> To: "asa" <asa@calvin.edu>
>>>> Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 11:22 AM
>>>> Subject: RE: [asa] "Evolutionary Creation" book comments (was: RE:
>>>> (fall-away) TE and apologetics)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Denis- just a short comment and note before I reply to the rest. A
>>>>> short answer would also be appreciated.
>>>>>
>>>>> First, as I see it, in your book "Evolutionary Creationism," you say
>>>>> concordism should be evaluated on three levels: science, history, and
>>>>> theology. You then use and define terms, with examples, for 'ancient
>>>>> science' and 'ancient history.' You don't do that for 'theology.'
>>>>> Why is
>>>>> that? Why not also use the term 'ancient theology' and use and define
>>>>> it
>>>>> like the other two?
>>>>>
>>>>> If you ask "what would be an example of 'ancient theology'" I would
>>>>> say
>>>>> one example is the notion that death entered the world through the sin
>>>>> of
>>>>> Adam (we both reject a literal Adam; and you laid out the case that
>>>>> the
>>>>> Apostle Paul specifically taught that physical death entered by way of
>>>>> Adam).
>>>>>
>>>>> My point: you imply 'ancient theology' (whether intentional or not)
>>>>> but
>>>>> don't explicitly state it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Pithy answers appreciated, pal ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> And just to be clear on the big picture, I think your two books are
>>>>> the
>>>>> only ones that I can think of to recommend to other Christians who
>>>>> want to
>>>>> integrate evolution into theology. They are the best I've seen.
>>>>>
>>>>> ...Bernie
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Denis O. Lamoureux [mailto:dlamoure@ualberta.ca]
>>>>> Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 10:01 AM
>>>>> To: Dehler, Bernie
>>>>> Cc: asa
>>>>> Subject: Re: [asa] RE: (fall-away) TE and apologetics
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear Bernie,
>>>>>
>>>>> A few folks on the listserv have contacted me to share of your recent
>>>>> shift
>>>>> away from Christianity. Since my name and work have come up in your
>>>>> posts,
>>>>> they thought that I should comment. After reading some of your
>>>>> arguments,
>>>>> I
>>>>> am sorry to say that you misrepresent my views, and quite badly. Of
>>>>> course,
>>>>> it runs through my mind whether you actually read my material with any
>>>>> care.
>>>>> Let me give you a couple examples.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri Sep 18 2009, Bernie writes:
>>>>>
>>>>> "I can explain how it ended my faith in Christ. Once accepting
>>>>> evolution,
>>>>> I
>>>>> had to figure out how to integrate it into theology. Lamoureux helped
>>>>> here.
>>>>> There is theology, science, and history in the Bible; and the last two
>>>>> are
>>>>> ancient and they are wrong. But now that I was on that road, I could
>>>>> go
>>>>> further, and say "Ah ha- it is the same case for theology- there is
>>>>> also
>>>>> an
>>>>> 'ancient theology' in the Bible that is also wrong." Of course, no
>>>>> theologian will use the term 'ancient theology' even though they
>>>>> believe
>>>>> it,
>>>>> because it will make them a heretic. So what is "ancient theology?"
>>>>> For
>>>>> one,
>>>>> the sin of Adam brought death into the world. Ancient, and wrong
>>>>> (according
>>>>> to TE's and YEC's). (Your quoted paragraph above mentions 'ancient'
>>>>> and
>>>>> wrong ideas related to theology, only they aren't labeled as such.)"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bernie, you've completely missed the entire point of my book, and
>>>>> you've
>>>>> committed the error that I attack throughout the book-CONFLATION.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In the example you cite, you've conflated:
>>>>>
>>>>> (1) the ancient science (the de novo of Adam, which is an ancient
>>>>> phenomenological perspective on how life arose) and
>>>>>
>>>>> (2) the Divine Theology (the reality of human sin and the fact that
>>>>> sin
>>>>> entered the world because of humans).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I give scores of examples of the ancient science being used as an
>>>>> incidental
>>>>> vessel to deliver the Holy Spirit inspired Messages of Faith (ie, the
>>>>> Message-Incident Principle which I repeat ad nauseam), but somehow you
>>>>> are
>>>>> oblivious to this categorical distinction. In this example, my
>>>>> conclusion
>>>>> is
>>>>> that "sin entered the world, but not with Adam" (p. 329).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Your comment regarding the integrity of theologians ("even though they
>>>>> believe it") is shameful and crosses the line. And it simply is not
>>>>> true.
>>>>> I
>>>>> believe the theology in Scripture is inerrant/infallible, and I use
>>>>> these
>>>>> terms in my book Evolutionary Creation (2008) 153 times in 386
>>>>> pages-about
>>>>> once every 2.5 pages.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Another of your misrepresentations and CONFLATIONS regards the history
>>>>> in
>>>>> Scripture. You write: "There is theology, science, and history in the
>>>>> Bible;
>>>>> and the last two are ancient and they are wrong." You fail to
>>>>> distinguish
>>>>> the ancient history in Gen 1-11 from the historical statements in the
>>>>> rest
>>>>> of the Bible. Remember, the focus of my book is on Gen 1-11. However,
>>>>> I
>>>>> did
>>>>> make a critical qualification right at the beginning of the first
>>>>> chapter
>>>>> where I deal with Gen 1-11. In the second paragraph of this chapter I
>>>>> made
>>>>> my views very clear regarding the history in Scripture:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "It has long been acknowledged that Scripture describes actual
>>>>> historical
>>>>>
>>>>> events. The scientific discipline of biblical archaeology explores
>>>>>
>>>>> the history of ancient Palestine and the surrounding regions. Evidence
>>>>>
>>>>> collected from sites in the Middle East confirms the existence of many
>>>>>
>>>>> customs, places, and peoples referred to in the Bible. To mention a
>>>>> few
>>>>>
>>>>> examples, the Old Testament record is consistent with archaeological
>>>>> data
>>>>>
>>>>> regarding religious practices (stone altars, blood sacrifices, holy
>>>>> mounts),
>>>>>
>>>>> nomadic life (tenting, herding, hospitality), cities (Rameses,
>>>>> Babylon,
>>>>>
>>>>> Jerusalem), nations (Egyptians, Assyrians, Canaanites), and kings
>>>>> (Sennacherib,
>>>>>
>>>>> Nebuchadnezzar, David). The New Testament also presents accurate
>>>>>
>>>>> history of first-century Palestine in regards to the Jewish religion
>>>>>
>>>>> (Pharisees, temples, sacrifices) and the Roman occupation (Pontius
>>>>> Pilate,
>>>>>
>>>>> centurions, crucifixion). And solid evidence supports the historical
>>>>> reality
>>>>>
>>>>> of a man named "Jesus of Nazareth" and the beginning of the Church.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, some Christians do not accept the historicity of Gen 1-11."
>>>>> p.
>>>>> 177
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So, don't assume that because the history in Gen 1-11 is ancient, that
>>>>> the
>>>>> rest of the Bible features a similar ancient understanding of history.
>>>>> This
>>>>> is an injudicious extrapolation.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Mon Sep 21 2009 Bernie writes:
>>>>>
>>>>> "The idea of a firmament is wrong. Same with the idea of the Earth
>>>>> being
>>>>> stationary and unmoveable (it is moving 67,000 mph around the Sun),
>>>>> and
>>>>> the
>>>>> universe being geocentric. Lamoureux identifies ancient (and wrong)
>>>>> science
>>>>> and history. But he never identifies theology in the same way,
>>>>> explicitly,
>>>>> that it can be likewise "ancient and wrong" (but he does implicitly
>>>>> state
>>>>> it). Example of ancient theology that is wrong: A literal Adam brought
>>>>> sin
>>>>> and death into the world... something most TE's would say is
>>>>> theologically
>>>>> wrong (all those who don't accept a literal Adam)."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bernie, your rhetoric (use of the term "wrong") is irritating. The
>>>>> ancient
>>>>> science was the best science of the day, and it's what we would have
>>>>> accepted had we lived then.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> But more irritating is your comment that I "implicitly state" that the
>>>>> theology is "ancient and wrong." UTTER NONSENSE. Here is the first
>>>>> paragraph of the chapter that begins my hermeneutical thesis in
>>>>> Evolutionary
>>>>> Creation:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "The Bible is a precious gift that has been given to us in order to
>>>>> reveal
>>>>>
>>>>> God and His will. Contained within its pages are the foundations of
>>>>>
>>>>> the Christian Faith-the creation of the world, the fall of humanity
>>>>> into
>>>>>
>>>>> sin, the offer of redemption through the Blood shed on the Cross, and
>>>>>
>>>>> the promise of eternal life. The Scriptures are also an everlasting
>>>>> source
>>>>>
>>>>> of spiritual nourishment for our soul. Through the power of the Holy
>>>>>
>>>>> Spirit, the Bible assures and encourages, challenges and admonishes,
>>>>> and
>>>>>
>>>>> equips men and women for a faithful life of good works. In particular,
>>>>>
>>>>> the primary purpose of God's Word is to reveal Jesus and the Father's
>>>>>
>>>>> unconditional love for all of us." p. 105
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Are you telling me that I believe the theology is "ancient and wrong"?
>>>>> As
>>>>> noted above, I refer to the theology as inerrant/infallible once every
>>>>> 2.5
>>>>> pages. So don't give me this NONSENSE that I "implicitly state" that
>>>>> the
>>>>> theology is "ancient and wrong," because I do not at all believe the
>>>>> theology is "wrong."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It is clear to me that you only read what you wanted out of my book to
>>>>> serve
>>>>> your agenda, which is clearly just an attempt to justify your
>>>>> rejection of
>>>>> Christianity.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [The next paragraph has got Bernie's approval to be posted because the
>>>>> contents came in a private e-mail]
>>>>>
>>>>> But let's get personal, because faith is not just an academic
>>>>> exercise. A
>>>>> month or so ago I asked you if you read the Bible DEVOTIONALLY. Your
>>>>> answer
>>>>> was a terse 'no'. Bernie, you're missing the point of God's Word
>>>>> completely. Scripture leads to a spiritual encounter. It is here to
>>>>> convict
>>>>> you and also to bless you. Reading the Bible entails having a set of
>>>>> ears
>>>>> that "hear." And though I don't for second believe in the historical
>>>>> reality
>>>>> of Adam and Eve, the account in Scripture about them is foundational
>>>>> to
>>>>> Christian Faith, because it reveals the inerrant and eternal truth of
>>>>> the
>>>>> human condition-we don't listen to God. And your non-devotional
>>>>> reading of
>>>>> the Bible is just like Adam and Eve's treatment of the words that God
>>>>> gives
>>>>> them in the garden. Like them, you just don't want to listen to His
>>>>> Word.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It is my 30 year experience with hearing a "voice" in the Bible that
>>>>> leads
>>>>> me to reject the idea that Scripture has ancient theology. It
>>>>> contains a
>>>>> living theology that changes lives forever. I don't see the same
>>>>> impact
>>>>> of
>>>>> other ancient theologies (Egyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian, etc.) on
>>>>> people
>>>>> today. But for most on this listserv, the "voice" in the Scripture is
>>>>> real,
>>>>> and it talks to them everyday. And that "voice" has got people praying
>>>>> for
>>>>> you, and concerned enough to challenge you.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Now in your defense, I can empathize with you regarding the challenges
>>>>> of
>>>>> modern biblical criticism. It certainly shook the core of my being
>>>>> when I
>>>>> was exposed to it in seminary. In EC (pp. 348-350), I write about a
>>>>> moment
>>>>> at the end of Regent College when I was ready to toss the faith
>>>>> because I
>>>>> saw an ancient feature in Scripture (the pre-creative state of Gen
>>>>> 1:2).
>>>>> But
>>>>> at the same time that "voice" arose and put things in perspective. The
>>>>> Bible
>>>>> has an ancient vessel that carries the life-changing Words of God. But
>>>>> you
>>>>> need "ears" to hear that "voice."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And I will also empathize with your tendency of focusing on the
>>>>> literature
>>>>> of the Bible. I'll confess that this has been an issue in my faith
>>>>> walk at
>>>>> times. As a theologian, I am always analyzing the Text critically, and
>>>>> it's
>>>>> easy to think that because I'm reading Scripture 8 hours a day that
>>>>> I'm in
>>>>> the Word all the time. NOT TRUE. I need devotional time in Scripture.
>>>>> Biblical criticism is great, but it's only a tool that serves us to
>>>>> get at
>>>>> the Message of Faith, and to understand the Holy Spirit's revelatory
>>>>> process. The Word was intended to be read DEVOTIONALLY. And that's the
>>>>> best
>>>>> part of reading the Bible-it results in a mystical encounter with God.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> To use an earthy example: People like you who focus just on the
>>>>> literature
>>>>> of Scripture through biblical criticism are like to those who limit
>>>>> sex
>>>>> with
>>>>> their spouse to just the anatomical and physiological facts of the
>>>>> act.
>>>>> They
>>>>> know all the physical details of sex, and when they are in bed with
>>>>> their
>>>>> spouse they keep their mind focused on the physical reality, missing
>>>>> completely the transcendent/spiritual/mystical character of the
>>>>> event/encounter. Those who only read the Bible critically are like
>>>>> those
>>>>> who
>>>>> fail to realize that there is something more to sex . . . it's called
>>>>> making
>>>>> love.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So what's the bottom line: your arguments regarding Scripture are
>>>>> based on
>>>>> a
>>>>> misrepresentation and proof-texting of my work. Your so-called "ah
>>>>> ha"
>>>>> moment is an injudicious extrapolation of my views. It's rooted in
>>>>> simplistic conflations.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bernie, have more integrity than Adam and Eve as they attempted to
>>>>> justify
>>>>> themselves with silly excuses before the Lord (eg, Eve to God: It's
>>>>> the
>>>>> snake that made me do it, or Adam to God: It's the woman YOU put here
>>>>> with
>>>>> me that made me do it [!]). Bernie, just be honest, toss the excuses,
>>>>> the
>>>>> rationalizations, and the justifications aside, and just say you
>>>>> simply
>>>>> don't
>>>>> want to believe. You just don't want to listen to God.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Over the last two years and two ASA meetings I have really enjoyed
>>>>> connecting with you and I quite appreciate your intensity in trying to
>>>>> make
>>>>> sense of things. You'll always be a pal.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Best wishes in your future,
>>>>>
>>>>> Denis
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
>>>>> "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
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Received on Tue Sep 29 03:28:24 2009