Re: [asa] RE: (fall-away) TE and apologetics

"How else could God talk to people? To the mind.  "

This fits our 21st century sensibilities to have it this way but this is not necessarily the precedent we have for how God actually speaks to us throughout history. In fact I would contend it was more the opposite. How rational was it for John the Baptist to wear camel hair garments and eat wild locusts? Or the weirdness of most of the OT prophets?  King David even recognized the crazy demoniac that was verbally assaulting him as even possibly being used by God.

In contrast it was the Pharisees that insisted on a rational, intellectual understanding of God and Jesus consistently refused to give it to them. in fact He went out of His way to offend the wise. Paul said God uses the foolish to confound the wise. Scripture is replete with this theme.

You are really cutting yourself off from the voice of God to expect it to always be something that appeals to your rational senses and confirms your understanding and wisdom. I suggest you expect it to be the oppostite, i.e. something bizarre that requires discernment and seeking like the above examples.

John

----- Original Message ----
From: "Dehler, Bernie" <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
Cc: asa <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 3:53:51 PM
Subject: RE: [asa] RE: (fall-away) TE and apologetics

Hi John-

I think your steps 4 and 5 below are kind of shallow.  Per the teaching of Lamoureux, you can see the science and history as errant, but also incidental, meaning the bible is still inerrant in what it teaches, theology.

I just went further and asked the question: "Is some of the theology in the Bible ancient and wrong?"  I agree with Lamoureux that the idea of Adam's first sin ushered in physical death for humans is ancient and wrong and taught in the Bible (we even rejected a literal Adam).  Once you find one 'ancient and wrong' theology, you wonder 'is there more?'  That's when I think I am able to see the death on the cross for sin and the resurrection as also 'ancient and wrong theology.'  (Lamoureux uses the terms 'ancient' to describe ancient and wrong science and history, but he doesn't apply it to theology... that is my contribution to extend his work ;-)

RE:
"Joan of Arc, when asked by the bishops "Do you not believe that what
you call your voice from God is really nothing more than your
imagination?" To this she replied, "Of course it is my imagination.
How else does God speak to us?""

Sounds like this person has an 'imaginary' God.

How else could God talk to people? To the mind.  That is much different than the imagination.  Joan didn't understand their point- they claimed she was hallucinating.

...Bernie

-----Original Message-----
From: John Burgeson (ASA member) [mailto:hossradbourne@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 1:26 PM
To: Dehler, Bernie
Cc: asa
Subject: Re: [asa] RE: (fall-away) TE and apologetics

If I understand you, Bernie, you went through these steps:

1 The Bible is inerrant.
2  Some of the scientific atatements in the Bible are incorrect.
3 Some of the biblical statements about history are incorrect
4 Therefore the Bible is not inerrant.
5 Therefore the theology (as you understand it) in the Bible must also
be incorrect.
6 Therefore it is not possible(intellectually) to be a Christian.

Do I have it about right?

I went through points 1-4 myself, some years ago. I did not hang up on
#5 because I had studied enough that I recognized that "theologies"
are man-made, not God-made, and that there are almost an infinite
number of theologies that one can construct from the Bible.

Theology, to me, is terribly interesting, but not terribly important.
One of the most incisive comment I have encountered about this issue
was penned by Nathanial Hawthorne. . "So long as an unlettered soul
can attain
to saving grace there would seem to be no deadly error in holding
theological libraries to be accumulations of, for the most part,
stupendous impertinence. -- Hawthorne (Preface to Twice-told Tales)

Another quotation:

I do not place my faith in writings, nor in creeds, nor in the
statements of scholars and philosophers, but in the living and present
Christ, infinitely beyond any human expression. Soli Deo Gloria
(author unknown)

"God" is just our name for the devine infinite. It does not define Him.

Joan of Arc, when asked by the bishops "Do you not believe that what
you call your voice from God is really nothing more than your
imagination?" To this she replied, "Of course it is my imagination.
How else does God speak to us?"

Cheers

Burgy

-- 
Burgy
www.burgy.50megs.com
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