Re: [asa] RE: (fall-away) TE and apologetics

I am a little concerned about what you say of faith and understanding.
The Greek /pistis/ may refer to content or commitment. I understand there
are places where it were better translated "faithfulness." The content
part is clearly a matter of understanding to some degree. Thus I am
partly persuaded by noting that a bunch of scared followers, hiding, came
forth and preached fearlessly, even when it brought them to death or the
threat of death. I understand that they encountered something that
convinced them beyond doubt.

The other side is that, as a human being, I recognize that I may be
wrong. Despite that possibility, I am committed to Christ in wholehearted
trust that his blood saves me.
Dave (ASA)

On Mon, 21 Sep 2009 19:55:59 -0600 wjp <wjp@swcp.com> writes:
> Christine:
>
> This is a beautiful story, but I just don't think faith looks this
> way.
> Perhaps losing one's faith does.
>
> It seems that you, as Bernie, believe that you have "lost your
> faith"
> because of something you thought you understood, you find you don't.
> In your case, it was because of the mind/body problem. For Bernie,
> it seems, it was the inability to concord Scripture with what he
> believes about the natural world, leading him to doubt all of
> Scripture.
>
> It seems to me that you both believe that Doubt and Faith are
> contraries.
> To shamelessly use your story, I think that Faith is more like the
> picture
> you have of consciousness. In ourselves we can dwell in Doubt, but
> the
> Light that comes from above, nonetheless, reflects (creates) Faith.
>
> Doubt is rational, whereas Faith is supra-rational.
> By supra-rational I mean that it has a rational component, but it is
> above rationality, and not dependent upon it, although it can be
> supported, or, as in the case of Doubt, undermined by it.
> But, nonetheless, Faith can live and breath in the presence of
> extreme Doubt and Silence of God.
>
> It is not difficult to find many famous examples of exactly what
> I am speaking of, but it also ought to be clear in our own lives
> as well.
>
> It is when we demand understanding for Faith (witness the motivation
> for multiuniveres), that Faith is diminished and, what is worse,
> maintained, or at least thought to be maintained, by our own
> efforts.
> We think that Faith is being Certain, while it is really absolute
> dependence and weakness. It is to be at Rest in utter weakness and
> uncertainty because our Trust is not in ourselves, but in another.
>
> It is for these reasons that I am still hopeful that Bernie is,
> despite his inclinations, still a Christian.
>
> I remember well a story one of my pastors told of himself.
> It is while in Seminary that he was introduced to unfamiliar
> ideas that caused him to doubt his faith. For some time he
> went on acting as if it was a phase that would surely pass.
> At long last, he felt he could go on no further, took time
> off from school, and went to visit his father. Upon relating
> to his father the gruesome details and the convoluted reasons
> for his doubt, he paused to await his father's reply.
> His father did not go into a lengthy defense or each point.
> Instead, he had but one short question:
> "Are you in, or are you out?"
> With that, my pastor realized, not only that he was still
> in, but that the walk of Faith was very different from what
> he had imagined.
>
> I think the same is true for all of us.
> The very fact that Christine ached in her soul and Bernie,
> at least for now, remains on this list, is evidence of that/
>
> bill
>
Christ
> > on the cross."
> >
> > That is precisely the line of logic I followed in my crisis of
> faith two
> > and a half years ago, and it almost made me an Atheist. Until, by
> God's
> > grace, He showed me that I WAS WRONG! Here's my story...
> >
> > My faith collapsed on February 3, 2007 because I got on to some
> Atheist
> > websites where they made precisely this type of argument. They
> argued,
> > 'how could their we anything like a soul when things like drugs
> and
> > medications and such could affect everything we might call
> "soulish"?'
> > What about brain damage they said? What's a "soul" mean in this
> context,
> > if there was such a thing? I had never considered these questions
> before,
> > and it rocked my faith to the core - because I had an extremely
> > simplistic, strictly dualistic notion of what a "soul" is. And I
> had no
> > idea how anything else besides this understanding could fit into
> any
> > theistic context, let alone Christianity. On February 4th, I
> remember I
> > went to the park to sit by a lake, and literally yelled at God,
> > challenging Him to strike me dead if He was real and He was
> listening
> > (Mercifully, He didn't). For two months, I flailed about somewhere
> between
> > Christianity and Atheism, obsessively reading
> > anything and everything I could about them. I couldn't listen to
> > Christian music without crying, I could barely bring myself to
> still
> > attend church or to pray, I questioned what the word "soulmates"
> meant as
> > engaved on my wedding ring. And then, one afternoon on the way to
> a
> > restaurant, I heard a Christian song on the radio: "Resurrection",
> talking
> > about how their heart had grown so lifeless, so cold, so dead. The
> song
> > deeply resonnated with me, and I prayed, once more, that God would
> help me
> > understand, if He even really existed? And that's when it happened
> - the
> > closest thing ever I have felt to pure revelation...
> >
> > Eating at the restaurant, I happened to glance down at the table,
> caught
> > by a glimmer of light. The table was made of polished granite, and
> a
> > mineral flek was reflecting the light. Instantaneously, I
> understood! I
> > went home and wrote it all down, praising God full of confidence
> once
> > again...
> >
> > Our physical brains and bodies are like a mineral. Minerals are
> entirely
> > material, the exact shape and alignment and construction of which
> > determines how precisely it interacts with the world, and what all
> of its
> > properties are. It determines how it reflects the light, at what
> angles,
> > and even whether or not it reflects light at all. The crystal
> structure
> > and its properties are 100% correlated - change one physical
> > characteristic of the crystal, and you can change everything else
> about
> > it. But the mineral itself, does not give off light, is not the
> source of
> > the light. The light is external. Likewise, our brains and our
> bodies are
> > entirely material, and how it is constructed, what it is made of,
> what we
> > put into it, etc. affects everything we experience, how we
> interact with
> > the world, and how well we physically capable we are to engage
> with all
> > that is around us. But just like a mineral is not the source of
> the light,
> > neither are we. Our consciousness,
> > our rationality, our emotions, all of the intangible qualities
> about us
> > (or any animal for that matter) that we call a "soul" are not
> intrinsic to
> > our material bodies. They "emerge" from this physical platform
> only when we
> > are in the presence of "light" - the "light" of God. In the
> presence of the
> > life-giving Holy Spirit, we are brought to life through the
> Spirit's
> > interaction with the material, and what we call a soul is the
> unique
> > reflection of the Spirit through our physical being. All people
> are
> > sustained by the Spirit, and thus when the Spirit withdraws, we
> die. Our
> > "souls" appear to leave our body but they are really "in Christ" -
> that is
> > to say, the unique pattern of that interaction of body and Spirit,
> is kept
> > safe within God Himself. At the resurrection, God will transform
> our
> > physical bodies and the Spirit will raise us to life again through
> that
> > renewed interaction. Thus, there is continuity from our current
> life, yet
> > we will be changed.
> >
> > That is what I believe, and that's how I came through my crisis of
> faith.
> > In so far as I understand, it is consistent with science as well
> as
> > Scripture. And by my husband's account, I am a much stronger and
> more
> > deeply faithful Christian that I was when I started. I hope and
> pray this
> > will be the case for you as you continue on your journey.
> >
> > I must be going, but as many here (including myself) have referred
> you to
> > the work of N. T. Wright, I thought I'd point you to his website
> so you
> > can explore it a bit if you're so inclined:
> http://www.ntwrightpage.com/.
> >
> > In Christ,
> > Christine
> >
> > "For we walk by faith, not by sight" ~II Corinthians 5:7
> >
> > Help save the life of a homeless animal--visit www.azrescue.org to
> find
> > out how.
> >
> > Recycling a single aluminum can conserves enough energy to power
> your TV
> > for 3 hours--Reduce, Reuse, Recycle! Learn more at www.cleanup.org
> >
> >
> > --- On Mon, 9/21/09, Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> From: Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
> >> Subject: RE: [asa] RE: (fall-away) TE and apologetics
> >> To:
> >> Cc: "asa" <asa@calvin.edu>
> >> Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 11:48 AM
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I think my
> >> latest awareness came at the
> >> last ASA conference with the discussions about the
> >> “mind/body”
> >> problem. I’ve come to see the
> >> ‘conscience’ as something
> >> complex that emerges from the brain. Christians would
> >> call it a ‘soul’
> >> by I see no reason to attach a spiritual entity to
> >> it. In Christian theology, the
> >> idea of a soul introduces many unanswered questions-
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> What are
> >> toddlers or senile people are
> >> like in heaven (eternally toddler or eternally
> >> senile?).
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> If souls
> >> given at conception: how are souls
> >> given to identical twins (one egg/sperm splits off
> >> into two kids after some
> >> time) and chimeras (two fertilized eggs grow then at some
> >> point combine tomake
> >> one person) at birth? Also, Siamese
> >> twins?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Seeing the
> >> conscious as just emergence
> >> (and dissipation in old age) from the brain resolves all
> >> these questions.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> No soul
> >> -> no afterlife -> no
> >> resurrection -> no work of Christ on the
> >> cross.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ...Bernie
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From:
> >> asa -owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:
> >> asa -owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of John
> >> Walley
> >>
> >> Sent: Sunday,
> >> September 20, 2009
> >> 5:39 PM
> >>
> >> To: Mark
> >> Whorton
> >>
> >> Cc: asa
> >>
> >> Subject: Re:
> >> [
> >> asa ] RE: (fall-away) TE and apologetics
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Mark,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I contend that
> >> the importance of the theological
> >> component of your RTB to TE journey was directly
> >> proportional to your
> >> investment in it beforehand. It was the same with going
> >> from YEC to RTB. The
> >> more you were bought in to all the arguments for the age of
> >> the earth, the more
> >> you had to unlearn before you could go forward. Inerrancy
> >> is the perfect
> >> theological example. I was never totally sold on that for
> >> lots of reasons but
> >> maily because it just never seemed to make any sense to me
> >> even though I tried
> >> hard to believe it to be a good Christian but just never
> >> really could.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Also, I had only
> >> heard of the YEC party line but was never
> >> really bought into it so it was much easier for me to let
> >> it all go with no
> >> serious emotional toll on me. Likewise the same with
> >> theology. So I contend
> >> there is an advantage to not making an irrevocable
> >> commitment if you can't
> >> really be sure about it. It just never was that important
> >> to me or that
> >> essential. This again was providential revelation at
> >> least in my case.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> John
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From: Mark
> >> Whorton <mark.whorton@yahoo.com>
> >>
> >> To:
> >> gmurphy10@neo.rr.com; John
> >> Burgeson (ASA member) <hossradbourne@gmail.com>; John
> >> Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com>; "Dehler,
> >> Bernie" <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
> >>
> >> Cc: asa
> >> < asa @calvin.edu>
> >>
> >> Sent: Sunday,
> >> September 20, 2009
> >> 7:51:42 PM
> >>
> >> Subject: Re:
> >> [
> >> asa ] RE: (fall-away) TE and apologetics
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Pardon me for
> >> inserting myself in mid stream, but I
> >> completely agree with George. In my evolution from
> >> YEC to progressive
> >> creation, I had to make the transition in the context of a
> >> biblical
> >> worldview. I had to work out the relevant theological
> >> issues
> >> systematically. Likewise as I was forced into TE by
> >> the strength of the
> >> evidence and the insufferable insistence of John
> >> Walley ;-), I had to have another paradigm evolution based
> >> on
> >> systematic theology. What I am saying is this -- a
> >> Christian must
> >> integrate what they believe about the world with what they
> >> believe to be true
> >> about God and His nature. For me this meant that as a
> >> Southern Baptist I
> >> had to jettison the doctrine of inerrancy as taught in our
> >> Sunday School
> >> classes in light of a better understanding of what is meant
> >> by the authority
> >> and inspiration of Scripture. Pure and simple, that
> >> is theology. It
> >> did not mean that "theology is incorrect" by any
> >> means. It
> >> meant that I had to integrate the science and my
> >> understanding (slight but
> >> hopefully growing) understanding of God's
> >> self-revelation into an evolving
> >> systematic theology.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Pardon me for being so focused on my story, but I
> >> think it illustrates
> >> the evolution that must take place in a Christian who is
> >> actively seeking to
> >> learn and grow. Hopefully by God's grace I am
> >> making slow progress in
> >> that direction.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Mark Whorton
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From:
> >> "gmurphy10@neo.rr.com"
> >> <gmurphy10@neo.rr.com>
> >>
> >> To: John
> >> Burgeson (ASA member)
> >> <hossradbourne@gmail.com>; John Walley
> >> <john_walley@yahoo.com>; "Dehler, Bernie"
> >> <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
> >>
> >> Cc: asa
> >> < asa @calvin.edu>;
> >> mark.whorton@yahoo.com
> >>
> >> Sent: Sunday,
> >> September 20, 2009
> >> 12:06:11 AM
> >>
> >> Subject: Re:
> >> [
> >> asa ] RE: (fall-away) TE and apologetics
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Of course I meant dismissal of theology in general, not of
> >> particular
> >> theologies. & of course there are bad as well as
> >> good
> >> theologies. But if theology is the practice of faith
> >> in search of
> >> understanding - or simply thinking about what one believes
> >> & its
> >> implications - then dismissal of theology in general is by
> >> definition
> >> anti-intellectual.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Since the Christian message involves claims about God's
> >> relationship with the
> >> real world, any theology that conflicts with what is known
> >> to be true about the
> >> world is defective, the seriousness of the conflict
> >> determining the degree of
> >> defect. On that count any theology that insists that
> >> the world is young
> >> or that evolution hasn't occurred is defective.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> In fact, what you've been doing in trying to make sense
> >> of your faith when you
> >> take evolution seriously is precisely theology.
> >> It's important though to
> >> have some guidance in such an enterprise, & the
> >> theological tradition can
> >> help with that (though it's not infallible).
> >> & part of the process is
> >> separating the wheat from the chaff.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> C.S. Lewis described a talk on theology he'd given to
> >> some men in the RAF,
> >> after which one man stood up and said that all that
> >> armchair stuff was all very
> >> well for intellectuals but that he'd known the presence
> >> of God when he was out
> >> in the desert at night without any of that formal
> >> theology. (It's been
> >> awhile since I read this so I may not have the details
> >> right but that's the
> >> gist of it.) Lewis replied that he had no doubt that
> >> the man had had such
> >> experiences. But how far would they take a
> >> person? It's a bit like
> >> what you need if you're going to sail the Atlantic from
> >> Europe to
> >> America , he
> >> said. Of course nautical charts wouldn't give you
> >> any sense of what it
> >> would be like to be out on the ocean in a boat. But
> >> feelings wouldn't get
> >> you from Portsmouth to
> >> New York and a nautical chart could.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Shalom,
> >>
> >> George
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ---- John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > > Any dismissal of theology amounts to an
> >> endorsement of an
> >> anti-intellectual "spirituality."
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> George, my only response to this is that from my
> >> laymen's perspective, I look
> >> around and see that the theology that I have been exposed
> >> to, at least in the
> >> evangelical church, amounts to primarily YEC and maybe PC,
> >> with a sprinkling of
> >> ID thrown in, but all united in bashing evolution and
> >> science. I don't have a
> >> lot of confidence in the usefulness of of at least that
> >> theology seeing what a
> >> bang up job it did for them and the resulting stellar
> >> influence they have on
> >> intellectuals in our culture. I had to divorce myself from
> >> all of it to find
> >> truth on my own in TE through my own studies and here on
> >> the ASA list, with
> >> little help from theology. If that is
> >> anti-intellectual
> >> "spirituality" then I am guilty as charged.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> But in contrast, my friend Richard Howe and his brother,
> >> both PhD seminary
> >> professors and one fluent in Hebrew, both well read and
> >> educated in theology
> >> and quite proud of their particular brand of it and at the
> >> top of the heap in
> >> evangelicalism, but militant YECs to the core, are they the
> >> fruits of studying
> >> theology and the exemplar representatives of it you are
> >> referring to? I don't
> >> think so.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I don't think theology is the secret formula to truth
> >> or a pre or post
> >> requisite, I think it is "spiritual" discernment
> >> which is in turn the
> >> result of revelation. That is what Peter had and all the
> >> first century
> >> Christians. Anti-intellectual, maybe, but I contend it has
> >> served me better
> >> than theology has compared to most of the people
> >> I have met.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> John
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message ----
> >>
> >> From: "gmurphy10@neo.rr.com" <gmurphy10@neo.rr.com>
> >>
> >> To: John Burgeson (ASA member) <hossradbourne@gmail.com>;
> >> John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com>;
> >> "Dehler, Bernie" <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
> >>
> >> Cc: asa <asa@calvin.edu>
> >>
> >> Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 10:20:59 PM
> >>
> >> Subject: Re: [ asa ] RE: (fall-away)
> >> TE and apologetics
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Granted that our theologies are at best imperfect & may
> >> even be
> >> "impertinent." But theology is essentilally
> >> an attempt to
> >> understand what we believe and its implications. We
> >> are, after all, to
> >> love God with all our mind as well as heart, soul &
> >> strength. Any
> >> dismissal of theology amounts to an endorsement of an
> >> anti-intellectual
> >> "spirituality."
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Shalom,
> >>
> >> George
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ---- John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>> >> > Wow. I really like the SDG and JofA and quotes
> >> below. I agree that is
> >> what our faith has to be based on, our own personal
> >> experiential revelation.
> >> Everything else is sinking sand. That is the example Jesus
> >> gave us in the NT as
> >> well. When Jesus challenged Peter, he confirmed his
> >> response by saying that
> >> "flesh and blood has not revealed this to you".
> >> So I contend it has
> >> to be today as well. This is consistent with Burgy's
> >> comment below. I am
> >> intentionally and blissfully ignorant of most of the
> >> infinite man-made
> >> theologies referenced below, and I don't think I am
> >> missing much. It is much
> >> more important to be like Peter (and JofA) and recognize
> >> God's revelation when
> >> you experience it.
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> > I also agree the secret is not to get hung up on #5.
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> > John
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> > ----- Original Message ----
> >>
> >> > From: John Burgeson (ASA member) <hossradbourne@gmail.com>
> >>
> >> > To: "Dehler, Bernie" <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
> >>
> >> > Cc: asa <asa@calvin.edu>
> >>
> >> > Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 4:25:41 PM
> >>
> >> > Subject: Re: [ asa ] RE:
> >> (fall-away) TE and apologetics
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> > If I understand you, Bernie, you went through these
> >> steps:
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> > 1 The Bible is inerrant.
> >>
> >> > 2 Some of the scientific atatements in the Bible
> >> are incorrect.
> >>
> >> > 3 Some of the biblical statements about history are
> >> incorrect
> >>
> >> > 4 Therefore the Bible is not inerrant.
> >>
> >> > 5 Therefore the theology (as you understand it) in the
> >> Bible must also
> >>
> >> > be incorrect.
> >>
> >> > 6 Therefore it is not possible(intellectually) to be a
> >> Christian.
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> > Do I have it about right?
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> > I went through points 1-4 myself, some years ago. I
> >> did not hang up on
> >>
> >> > #5 because I had studied enough that I recognized that
> >> "theologies"
> >>
> >> > are man-made, not God-made, and that there are almost
> >> an infinite
> >>
> >> > number of theologies that one can construct from the
> >> Bible.
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> > Theology, to me, is terribly interesting, but not
> >> terribly important.
> >>
> >> > One of the most incisive comment I have encountered
> >> about this issue
> >>
> >> > was penned by Nathanial Hawthorne. . "So long as
> >> an unlettered soul
> >>
> >> > can attain
> >>
> >> > to saving grace there would seem to be no deadly error
> >> in holding
> >>
> >> > theological libraries to be accumulations of, for the
> >> most part,
> >>
> >> > stupendous impertinence. -- Hawthorne
> >> (Preface to Twice-told Tales)
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> > Another quotation:
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> > I do not place my faith in writings, nor in creeds,
> >> nor in the
> >>
> >> > statements of scholars and philosophers, but in the
> >> living and present
> >>
> >> > Christ, infinitely beyond any human expression. Soli
> >> Deo Gloria
> >>
> >> > (author unknown)
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> > "God" is just our name for the devine
> >> infinite. It does not
> >> define Him.
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> > Joan of Arc, when asked by the bishops "Do you
> >> not believe that what
> >>
> >> > you call your voice from God is really nothing more
> >> than your
> >>
> >> > imagination?" To this she replied, "Of
> >> course it is my
> >> imagination.
> >>
> >> > How else does God speak to us?"
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> > Cheers
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> > Burgy
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> > --
> >>
> >> > Burgy
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> > www.burgy.50megs.com
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu
> >> with
> >>
> >> > "unsubscribe asa " (no
> >> quotes) as the body of the message.
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu
> >> with
> >>
> >> > "unsubscribe asa " (no
> >> quotes) as the body of the message.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu
> >> with
> >>
> >> "unsubscribe asa " (no
> >> quotes) as the body of the message.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
> > "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
>
>
> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
> "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
>
____________________________________________________________
Wanna lose weight? Weight Loss Programs that work. Click here.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTFoYdF3z2ATc8hBS4REuB6c9Ed0DwL5DqvLuaObnLgxsayrcEIzYk/

To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
"unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
Received on Tue Sep 22 13:54:50 2009