Re: [asa] (evolution of ideas) Evolution Conference Washington, DC - language confusion

David -

The experiment you describe certainly sounds interesting but why are we supposed to have any more confidence in it than in reports of the "Philadelphia Experiment," the pickled aliens from Roswell or the "truthers" who think that the World Trade Center was blown up from the inside? I'm not trying to ridicule what you report, but it's difficult to give much credence to an account of some surprising observation or experiment for which no support is given, supposedly because of a putative conspiracy to silence it.

Shalom,
George

---- David Clounch <david.clounch@gmail.com> wrote:
> Bernie,
>
> Absolutely.
>
> Another place is in applying math to art forgery. There is an artist who
> painted wind driven sand patterns (like sand dunes). It turns out
> statistical techniques used in analysis of wrist strokes can tell the
> difference between the original artist, the fake artist, and the natural
> scene as created created by a machine.
> So, you can tell if an intelligence was at work, and tell the difference
> between artifacts of one intelligence versus another. This isn't allowed
> to be reported on and will instantly be labeled as "religion". Research of
> this type is simply not allowed.
>
> -Dave C
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 10:44 AM, Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>wrote:
>
> > "I suspect Dr Campbell will tell you an analysis of intelligence isn't
> > allowed by science."
> >
> > Well, I would think of at least one place that "intelligence is studied as
> > science" is in the field of Psychiatry. It is all about studying the brain
> > and how/why it thinks. That would likely be just one of many examples.
> >
> > ...Bernie
> >
> > ________________________________________
> > From: David Clounch [mailto:david.clounch@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 6:38 AM
> > To: Dehler, Bernie
> > Cc: asa@calvin.edu
> > Subject: Re: [asa] (evolution of ideas) Evolution Conference Washington, DC
> > - language confusion
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 1:20 PM, Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
> > wrote:
> > Gregory said:
> > "Please explain or describe to me the 'mechanism' or 'method' by which
> > 'ideas evolve.' If you'd like, pick an example or just to speak abstractly
> > or theoretically."
> >
> > That is so easy.
> >
> > Look at any modern product, such as a computer. All the parts- from
> > hardware to software, evolved. That is, more complex ideas arose based on
> > previous simpler ideas.
> >
> > Idea evolution formula:
> > Previous idea + insight from thinking = new idea.
> > Repeat over and over, endlessly.
> >
> > You object to the "insight from thinking" part as if evolution can't have
> > intelligence as a part of the mechanism. That's where you go wrong. Even
> > in biological evolution, in higher forms of animals, natural selection
> > involves intelligence. For example, certain lion kings killing other males
> > to maintain their dominance. That is driven by intelligence.
> >
> > Hahaha. So, it seems you may have just advocated ID in the exact same way
> > I always did. Completely able to be analyzed by science. Unless you are
> > advocating its intelligence without design. But what is design? Design is
> > forseeing the future, and saying "I am in state A right now, I want to be in
> > state B, what can I do to get from A to B? which wouldn't otherwise happen
> > if I don't apply intelligence? Thats *all* that ID is. Even birds exhibit
> > this. They design things that wouldnt otherwise happen if they didnt apply
> > their intelligence.
> >
> > I believe there are also similar examples at the level of bugs... but don't
> > want to spend time looking it up just now.
> >
> > Dr. Campbell may even be able to tell you some things that clams do, using
> > their intelligence, to stay alive (such as migration?).
> > I suspect Dr Campbell will tell you an analysis of intelligence isn't
> > allowed by science.
> >
> > ...Bernie
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
> > Behalf Of Gregory Arago
> > Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 9:55 AM
> > To: asa@calvin.edu; Randy Isaac
> > Subject: Re: [asa] Evolution Conference Washington, DC - language confusion
> >
> > Hi Randy,
> >
> > Please explain or describe to me the 'mechanism' or 'method' by which
> > 'ideas evolve.' If you'd like, pick an example or just to speak abstractly
> > or theoretically. Otherwise, it is rather easy to dismiss you as having wax
> > in your ears; you listen, but hear nothing I say.
> >
> > Ideas do not 'evolve'. Sure, they change. But 'change' and 'evolution' are
> > not the same thing.
> >
> > There has been zero willingness on your part to confront this reality,
> > unfortunately, and now the only option left is to assume it is a willful
> > denial of knowledge on your part. Every single person I've spoken with on
> > this issue 'gets it.' Perhaps the problem is the medium of communication?
> >
> > I write directly like this, since you were recently the President of ASA
> > and if you are going to say something like "The title...seem[s] appropriate"
> > as if that has authority, when I made a clear argument against it, then you
> > should be able to explain your view. I don't think you can and I submit that
> > you are displaying a lack of 'proper tools' to evaluate the topic. But I say
> > this, of course, with due respect and humility for other aspects of your
> > participation and contribution to 'science(, philosophy) and religion'
> > discourse. The conference could be a great one for what it is, but this
> > doesn't excuse the misworded title.
> >
> > Do you think 'ideas evolve,' Randy Isaac: yes or no? If yes, what gives you
> > such confidence to say apples (biological entities) are oranges (ideas) or
> > vice versa? Evolutionary theory 'evolves' you say, Randy?
> >
> > Yours disappointed (again and again) by American evolutionistic dogma,
> > Gregory
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________________________
> > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr!
> >
> > http://www.flickr.com/gift/
> >
> > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
> > "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
> > "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
> > "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
> >

To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
"unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
Received on Tue Sep 15 12:49:33 2009