Re: [asa] ASA Newsletter

I contend this is the log in the eye of the anti-extra biblical crowd. In this example below, how were the scriptures responsible for Simon Barjona's revelation? In fact wasn't it a more internal subjective knowing? As was Peter's as well and all those who witnessed Jesus's teaching and miracles.

Also if you  look at the words of Jesus and what He appealed to as the final arbiter of knowing and receiving Him, many of the examples like "My sheep know My voice" and "children of light" and "heart of a child" all seem to imply a more innate spiritual discernment than any external source. Jesus further confirmed this with His comment on the Comforter when He said the Comforter would lead us into "all truth and righteousness". The irony here is that the Biblical position establishes an extra biblical source as the primary means of revelation.

John

----- Original Message ----
From: "Alexanian, Moorad" <alexanian@uncw.edu>
To: dfsiemensjr <dfsiemensjr@juno.com>
Cc: "wjp@swcp.com" <wjp@swcp.com>; "gmurphy10@neo.rr.com" <gmurphy10@neo.rr.com>; "asa@calvin.edu" <asa@calvin.edu>; "david.clounch@gmail.com" <david.clounch@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2009 9:15:27 AM
Subject: RE: [asa] ASA Newsletter

Dave,

I have never claimed to get direct revelation from God.  I can only read Scripture and either believe what is written or not.  I suppose coming to faith is very much how Simon Barjona answered Jesus, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Matt. 7:16.

Moorad

-----Original Message-----
From: dfsiemensjr [mailto:dfsiemensjr@juno.com]
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 2:50 PM
To: Alexanian, Moorad
Cc: wjp@swcp.com; dfsiemensjr@juno.com; gmurphy10@neo.rr.com; asa@calvin.edu; david.clounch@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [asa] ASA Newsletter

Moorad,
When did you get a direct revelation from God with new information? I am
consistently suspicious of anyone who claims "I have a word of the Lord
for you." I consider scripture the final revelation.
Dave (ASA)

On Mon, 7 Sep 2009 10:59:44 -0400 "Alexanian, Moorad"
<alexanian@uncw.edu> writes:
> 'And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because
> flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in
> heaven.' Matthew 16:17
>
> Moorad
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu]
> On Behalf Of Bill Powers
> Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 11:35 PM
> To: dfsiemensjr
> Cc: gmurphy10@neo.rr.com; asa@calvin.edu; david.clounch@gmail.com
> Subject: Re: [asa] ASA Newsletter
>
> Dave:
>
> I admit that the process of coming to faith is unclear to me.
> Surely,
> we must hear the Word.  But because I believe that faith that takes
> root
> is unconditional and in a real sense supra-rational, I don't see
> exactly
> how a rational obstacle can occur.  In a like manner, I believe
> that
> unbelief is unconditional and supra-rational.  The arguments and
> rationales that people employ are more a front and support for a
> position that they bound to.  One might say that belief and unbelief
> are
> something like Quine's core beliefs, which themselves are immune to
> evidence and argument.
>
> bill
>
> On Sun, 6 Sep 2009, dfsiemensjr wrote:
>
> > Bill,
> > Have you considered Romans 10:17: Faith is from hearing, and
> hearing
> > through Christ's word... ? If misinformation about science and/or
> > scripture keeps one from hearing, there will be no faith. Just the
> Word
> > without the work of the Spirit is also without effect, of course.
> Recall
> > also that the action of the Spirit was likened to the wind (John
> 3:8),
> > whose path is not understood. Romans 10;14 is also relevant in
> indicating
> > that the Spirit works through the messenger. It strikes me that
> our walk
> > becoming uncomfortable can only happen when we are in a faith
> > relationship.
> > Dave (ASA)
> >
> > On Sun, 6 Sep 2009 19:30:06 -0600 (MDT) Bill Powers
> <wjp@swcp.com>
> > writes:
> > George:
> >>
> >> The distinctive between what I was saying and what I read you to
> be
> >>
> >> saying is that I don't believe we can know (indeed, I doubt)
> that
> >> such
> >> things as the tension or the obstacle (as you would have it)
> between
> >>
> >> science and religion keep people from faith.  It is because
> faith
> >> comes
> >> through the Holy Spirit, as you remind us, that I, for one, do
> not
> >> believe that such rational tensions have much influence,
> although
> >> they
> >> can make our walk of faith uncomfortable.
> >>
> >> Perhaps my view of what coming to faith looks like are uncommon,
> and
> >> I
> >> know there are those who claim they have "come to faith" in
> their
> >> efforts to disprove the faith, but I don't see the rational
> aspects
> >>
> >> associated with faith (one might say the play of faith and
> reason)
> >> to be
> >> critically important, although they may be used by some to
> support
> >> either faith or disbelief.
> >>
> >> In any case, I think my description of the issue is more general
> >> than
> >> yours since I don't require that the tension keep one from
> faith,
> >> but
> >> merely serve as a tension with faith.
> >>
> >> thanks,
> >>
> >> bill
> >>
> >> On Sun, 6 Sep 2009,
> >> gmurphy10@neo.rr.com wrote:
> >>
> >>> In a general sense we certainly do know how people are brought
> to
> >> faith - through the message of Christ (Romans 10:17).  That is
> the
> >> means the Holy Spirit uses.  Now indeed we do not know why that
> does
> >> sometimes produce faith & sometimes (in spite of I Timothy 2:4)
> >> apparently doesn't.  & of course the message of Christ can come
> to
> >> people in many different ways.
> >>>
> >>> Having said that, I can't really see a fundamental difference
> >> between what I said & what you're saying, or why your formulation
> in
> >> terms of "a powerful tension between science and religion" is
> either
> >> more conservative or more reliable than mine.  OK, sometimes the
> >> powerful tension is sufficient to keep people from accepting the
> >> claims of the gospel.  Sometimes the tension is overcome through
> >> reflection on both science and the gospel.  & sometimes a person
> >> will make a leap of faith in spite of those tensions.
> >>>
> >>> Tension, obstacle - put it as you will.  It may be that
> spurious
> >> scientific claims (e.g., "Science has shown that there is no God
> >> acting in the world") threaten to convince a person that
> Christian
> >> claims must be false.  Or it may be that misrepresentations of
> >> Christianity (e.g., "The need for a savior stands or falls with
> the
> >> historical character of Genesis 3") make someone doubt the
> validity
> >> of the gospel.  Perhaps issues of theodicy (e.g., "How could a
> >> loving God make use of suffering and death to create life?")
> raise
> >> doubts.  All those obstacles/tensions involve science, & are
> >> susceptible to removal by an adequate understanding of the
> >> relationship between science and theology.
> >>>
> >>> & yes, this can be thought of in terms of the relationship
> between
> >> Christ & culture, science being an important aspect of the
> latter.
> >> Indeed, in today's world it's an unavoidable feature of culture
> -
> >> which just reinforces my point.
> >>>
> >>> Shalom,
> >>> George
> >>>
> >>> ---- wjp <wjp@swcp.com> wrote:
> >>>> George:
> >>>>
> >>>> You say, "today a lot of the obstacles that keep people from
> >> coming to
> >>>> Christian faith have to do with science - some real & some
> not.
> >> &
> >>>> eliminating those obstacles is a task that ASA ought to be
> able
> >> to help
> >>>> with."
> >>>>
> >>>> Since I don't believe I, or anyone, outside of the Holy
> Spirit,
> >> has
> >>>> access to how or when people "come to faith," I cannot provide
> >>>> evidence for whether or against what you say.
> >>>> However, I would suggest that a more conservative and more
> >> reliable
> >>>> claim, and one nonetheless important, is that many today,
> >> Christian
> >>>> and non-Christian know and experience a powerful tension
> between
> >>>> science and religion.
> >>>>
> >>>> It seems to me that such tensions are no more than those
> >> tensions
> >>>> between Christianity and Culture that Niebuhr spoke famously
> of
> >> in
> >>>> Christ and Culture.  It occurs to me that the ways he spoke
> >>>> of might equally well be applied to the relationship between
> >>>> Christianity and Science.  Are such relationships exhaustive.
> >>>>
> >>>> bill
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sun, 6 Sep 2009 12:17:02 -0400, <gmurphy10@neo.rr.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>> Agreed that general apologetics is not a distinctive ASA task
> -
> >> i.e., one
> >>>>> in which it has special competence - & thus shouldn't be our
> >> primary
> >>>>> focus.  But today a lot of the obstacles that keep people
> from
> >> coming to
> >>>>> Christian faith have to do with science - some real & some
> not.
> >> &
> >>>>> eliminating those obstacles is a task that ASA ought to be
> able
> >> to help
> >>>>> with.  That doesn't mean that it should be our main emphasis
> but
> >> we should
> >>>>> at least be able to be a resource for others engaged in
> >> competent
> >>>>> apologetics - with stress on "competent."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Shalom,
> >>>>> George
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ---- David Clounch <david.clounch@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> ASA members,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Regarding the issues raised pertaining to Africa, my  feeling
> >> is those
> >>>>> sorts
> >>>>>> of matters really are of concern to ASA members only.
> >>>>>> Probably many members will disagree with me.  Its just that
> >> when it
> >>>>> comes to
> >>>>>> strategies for outreach and mission it seems to me you have
> to
> >> get you
> >>>>>> ducks in a row before starting to catch grenades.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> As far as  the ASA doing basic apologetics for Christianity
> in
> >> general,
> >>>>> I'm
> >>>>>> not against the ASA doing that. I'm just surprised the ASA
> has
> >> to do it
> >>>>> at
> >>>>>> all.  It just seems slightly misplaced.  (So if I am wrong
> >> here, please
> >>>>>> tell me so.)  Is it not true there are many many other
> venues
> >> that
> >>>>> perform
> >>>>>> that function?  Would it not be more appropriate for someone
> >> with
> >>>>> questions
> >>>>>> or challenges to Christianity itself to  go to a more
> >> appropriate venue?
> >>>>> I
> >>>>>> am ambivalent about that. I never had the expectation that
> it
> >> is the ASA
> >>>>>> that had the answers in this area.  Or the charter to
> develop
> >> those
> >>>>>> answers.  I suspect the  enemies of Christianity do not
> really
> >> want
> >>>>> answers.
> >>>>>> Are they really trying to understand, or are  they are just
> >> making
> >>>>> trouble
> >>>>>> and trying to distract?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> My personal opinion is it is far more important for us to
> >> dialog with
> >>>>>> Muslims, for example, than it is to dialog with atheists. We
> >> have
> >>>>> something
> >>>>>> in common with Muslims, and Muslims are far more likely to
> ask
> >> a
> >>>>> question
> >>>>>> that gives them insight into Christianity than is any
> >> westernized
> >>>>> atheist.
> >>>>>> In fact I would suspect the entire population of China  and
> the
> >> old
> >>>>> Soviet
> >>>>>> Union makes for better dialog than do western atheists.  The
> >> same goes
> >>>>> for
> >>>>>> non-believing Africa.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> So, if we are going to have to regurgitate CS Lewis's  moral
> >> argument
> >>>>> for
> >>>>>> God's existence, and that sort of thing, etc,
> >>>>>> ad nauseum, perhaps we should do it in a form that is more
> >> likely to be
> >>>>>> digested  by those who are really trying to understand?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Dave C (ASA member)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
> >>>>> "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
> >>>> "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
> >> "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
> >>
> >
> > ____________________________________________________________
> > The Art Institutes
> > Live your passion. Pursue a graphic design degree.
> >
>
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/c?cp=y5f3j3r4at5iXK6BBy3vWgAAJ1B
jprPXYD0sv5pEhEhUwm52AAQAAAAFAAAAAJWOvD4AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACEEjAAAAAA==
> >
>
> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
> "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
>

To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
"unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.

To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
"unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
Received on Tue Sep 8 11:35:20 2009