Re: [asa] ASA Newsletter

Moorad,
When did you get a direct revelation from God with new information? I am
consistently suspicious of anyone who claims "I have a word of the Lord
for you." I consider scripture the final revelation.
Dave (ASA)

On Mon, 7 Sep 2009 10:59:44 -0400 "Alexanian, Moorad"
<alexanian@uncw.edu> writes:
> 'And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because
> flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in
> heaven.' Matthew 16:17
>
> Moorad
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu]
> On Behalf Of Bill Powers
> Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 11:35 PM
> To: dfsiemensjr
> Cc: gmurphy10@neo.rr.com; asa@calvin.edu; david.clounch@gmail.com
> Subject: Re: [asa] ASA Newsletter
>
> Dave:
>
> I admit that the process of coming to faith is unclear to me.
> Surely,
> we must hear the Word. But because I believe that faith that takes
> root
> is unconditional and in a real sense supra-rational, I don't see
> exactly
> how a rational obstacle can occur. In a like manner, I believe
> that
> unbelief is unconditional and supra-rational. The arguments and
> rationales that people employ are more a front and support for a
> position that they bound to. One might say that belief and unbelief
> are
> something like Quine's core beliefs, which themselves are immune to
> evidence and argument.
>
> bill
>
> On Sun, 6 Sep 2009, dfsiemensjr wrote:
>
> > Bill,
> > Have you considered Romans 10:17: Faith is from hearing, and
> hearing
> > through Christ's word... ? If misinformation about science and/or
> > scripture keeps one from hearing, there will be no faith. Just the
> Word
> > without the work of the Spirit is also without effect, of course.
> Recall
> > also that the action of the Spirit was likened to the wind (John
> 3:8),
> > whose path is not understood. Romans 10;14 is also relevant in
> indicating
> > that the Spirit works through the messenger. It strikes me that
> our walk
> > becoming uncomfortable can only happen when we are in a faith
> > relationship.
> > Dave (ASA)
> >
> > On Sun, 6 Sep 2009 19:30:06 -0600 (MDT) Bill Powers
> <wjp@swcp.com>
> > writes:
> > George:
> >>
> >> The distinctive between what I was saying and what I read you to
> be
> >>
> >> saying is that I don't believe we can know (indeed, I doubt)
> that
> >> such
> >> things as the tension or the obstacle (as you would have it)
> between
> >>
> >> science and religion keep people from faith. It is because
> faith
> >> comes
> >> through the Holy Spirit, as you remind us, that I, for one, do
> not
> >> believe that such rational tensions have much influence,
> although
> >> they
> >> can make our walk of faith uncomfortable.
> >>
> >> Perhaps my view of what coming to faith looks like are uncommon,
> and
> >> I
> >> know there are those who claim they have "come to faith" in
> their
> >> efforts to disprove the faith, but I don't see the rational
> aspects
> >>
> >> associated with faith (one might say the play of faith and
> reason)
> >> to be
> >> critically important, although they may be used by some to
> support
> >> either faith or disbelief.
> >>
> >> In any case, I think my description of the issue is more general
> >> than
> >> yours since I don't require that the tension keep one from
> faith,
> >> but
> >> merely serve as a tension with faith.
> >>
> >> thanks,
> >>
> >> bill
> >>
> >> On Sun, 6 Sep 2009,
> >> gmurphy10@neo.rr.com wrote:
> >>
> >>> In a general sense we certainly do know how people are brought
> to
> >> faith - through the message of Christ (Romans 10:17). That is
> the
> >> means the Holy Spirit uses. Now indeed we do not know why that
> does
> >> sometimes produce faith & sometimes (in spite of I Timothy 2:4)
> >> apparently doesn't. & of course the message of Christ can come
> to
> >> people in many different ways.
> >>>
> >>> Having said that, I can't really see a fundamental difference
> >> between what I said & what you're saying, or why your formulation
> in
> >> terms of "a powerful tension between science and religion" is
> either
> >> more conservative or more reliable than mine. OK, sometimes the
> >> powerful tension is sufficient to keep people from accepting the
> >> claims of the gospel. Sometimes the tension is overcome through
> >> reflection on both science and the gospel. & sometimes a person
> >> will make a leap of faith in spite of those tensions.
> >>>
> >>> Tension, obstacle - put it as you will. It may be that
> spurious
> >> scientific claims (e.g., "Science has shown that there is no God
> >> acting in the world") threaten to convince a person that
> Christian
> >> claims must be false. Or it may be that misrepresentations of
> >> Christianity (e.g., "The need for a savior stands or falls with
> the
> >> historical character of Genesis 3") make someone doubt the
> validity
> >> of the gospel. Perhaps issues of theodicy (e.g., "How could a
> >> loving God make use of suffering and death to create life?")
> raise
> >> doubts. All those obstacles/tensions involve science, & are
> >> susceptible to removal by an adequate understanding of the
> >> relationship between science and theology.
> >>>
> >>> & yes, this can be thought of in terms of the relationship
> between
> >> Christ & culture, science being an important aspect of the
> latter.
> >> Indeed, in today's world it's an unavoidable feature of culture
> -
> >> which just reinforces my point.
> >>>
> >>> Shalom,
> >>> George
> >>>
> >>> ---- wjp <wjp@swcp.com> wrote:
> >>>> George:
> >>>>
> >>>> You say, "today a lot of the obstacles that keep people from
> >> coming to
> >>>> Christian faith have to do with science - some real & some
> not.
> >> &
> >>>> eliminating those obstacles is a task that ASA ought to be
> able
> >> to help
> >>>> with."
> >>>>
> >>>> Since I don't believe I, or anyone, outside of the Holy
> Spirit,
> >> has
> >>>> access to how or when people "come to faith," I cannot provide
> >>>> evidence for whether or against what you say.
> >>>> However, I would suggest that a more conservative and more
> >> reliable
> >>>> claim, and one nonetheless important, is that many today,
> >> Christian
> >>>> and non-Christian know and experience a powerful tension
> between
> >>>> science and religion.
> >>>>
> >>>> It seems to me that such tensions are no more than those
> >> tensions
> >>>> between Christianity and Culture that Niebuhr spoke famously
> of
> >> in
> >>>> Christ and Culture. It occurs to me that the ways he spoke
> >>>> of might equally well be applied to the relationship between
> >>>> Christianity and Science. Are such relationships exhaustive.
> >>>>
> >>>> bill
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sun, 6 Sep 2009 12:17:02 -0400, <gmurphy10@neo.rr.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>> Agreed that general apologetics is not a distinctive ASA task
> -
> >> i.e., one
> >>>>> in which it has special competence - & thus shouldn't be our
> >> primary
> >>>>> focus. But today a lot of the obstacles that keep people
> from
> >> coming to
> >>>>> Christian faith have to do with science - some real & some
> not.
> >> &
> >>>>> eliminating those obstacles is a task that ASA ought to be
> able
> >> to help
> >>>>> with. That doesn't mean that it should be our main emphasis
> but
> >> we should
> >>>>> at least be able to be a resource for others engaged in
> >> competent
> >>>>> apologetics - with stress on "competent."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Shalom,
> >>>>> George
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ---- David Clounch <david.clounch@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> ASA members,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Regarding the issues raised pertaining to Africa, my feeling
> >> is those
> >>>>> sorts
> >>>>>> of matters really are of concern to ASA members only.
> >>>>>> Probably many members will disagree with me. Its just that
> >> when it
> >>>>> comes to
> >>>>>> strategies for outreach and mission it seems to me you have
> to
> >> get you
> >>>>>> ducks in a row before starting to catch grenades.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> As far as the ASA doing basic apologetics for Christianity
> in
> >> general,
> >>>>> I'm
> >>>>>> not against the ASA doing that. I'm just surprised the ASA
> has
> >> to do it
> >>>>> at
> >>>>>> all. It just seems slightly misplaced. (So if I am wrong
> >> here, please
> >>>>>> tell me so.) Is it not true there are many many other
> venues
> >> that
> >>>>> perform
> >>>>>> that function? Would it not be more appropriate for someone
> >> with
> >>>>> questions
> >>>>>> or challenges to Christianity itself to go to a more
> >> appropriate venue?
> >>>>> I
> >>>>>> am ambivalent about that. I never had the expectation that
> it
> >> is the ASA
> >>>>>> that had the answers in this area. Or the charter to
> develop
> >> those
> >>>>>> answers. I suspect the enemies of Christianity do not
> really
> >> want
> >>>>> answers.
> >>>>>> Are they really trying to understand, or are they are just
> >> making
> >>>>> trouble
> >>>>>> and trying to distract?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> My personal opinion is it is far more important for us to
> >> dialog with
> >>>>>> Muslims, for example, than it is to dialog with atheists. We
> >> have
> >>>>> something
> >>>>>> in common with Muslims, and Muslims are far more likely to
> ask
> >> a
> >>>>> question
> >>>>>> that gives them insight into Christianity than is any
> >> westernized
> >>>>> atheist.
> >>>>>> In fact I would suspect the entire population of China and
> the
> >> old
> >>>>> Soviet
> >>>>>> Union makes for better dialog than do western atheists. The
> >> same goes
> >>>>> for
> >>>>>> non-believing Africa.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> So, if we are going to have to regurgitate CS Lewis's moral
> >> argument
> >>>>> for
> >>>>>> God's existence, and that sort of thing, etc,
> >>>>>> ad nauseum, perhaps we should do it in a form that is more
> >> likely to be
> >>>>>> digested by those who are really trying to understand?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Dave C (ASA member)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
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> >>>>
> >>>>
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> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
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> >>
> >
> > ____________________________________________________________
> > The Art Institutes
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> >
>
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Received on Mon Sep 7 14:56:25 2009