Re: [asa] ASA Newsletter

Bill,
Have you considered Romans 10:17: Faith is from hearing, and hearing
through Christ's word... ? If misinformation about science and/or
scripture keeps one from hearing, there will be no faith. Just the Word
without the work of the Spirit is also without effect, of course. Recall
also that the action of the Spirit was likened to the wind (John 3:8),
whose path is not understood. Romans 10;14 is also relevant in indicating
that the Spirit works through the messenger. It strikes me that our walk
becoming uncomfortable can only happen when we are in a faith
relationship.
Dave (ASA)

On Sun, 6 Sep 2009 19:30:06 -0600 (MDT) Bill Powers <wjp@swcp.com>
writes:
> George:
>
> The distinctive between what I was saying and what I read you to be
>
> saying is that I don't believe we can know (indeed, I doubt) that
> such
> things as the tension or the obstacle (as you would have it) between
>
> science and religion keep people from faith. It is because faith
> comes
> through the Holy Spirit, as you remind us, that I, for one, do not
> believe that such rational tensions have much influence, although
> they
> can make our walk of faith uncomfortable.
>
> Perhaps my view of what coming to faith looks like are uncommon, and
> I
> know there are those who claim they have "come to faith" in their
> efforts to disprove the faith, but I don't see the rational aspects
>
> associated with faith (one might say the play of faith and reason)
> to be
> critically important, although they may be used by some to support
> either faith or disbelief.
>
> In any case, I think my description of the issue is more general
> than
> yours since I don't require that the tension keep one from faith,
> but
> merely serve as a tension with faith.
>
> thanks,
>
> bill
>
> On Sun, 6 Sep 2009,
> gmurphy10@neo.rr.com wrote:
>
> > In a general sense we certainly do know how people are brought to
> faith - through the message of Christ (Romans 10:17). That is the
> means the Holy Spirit uses. Now indeed we do not know why that does
> sometimes produce faith & sometimes (in spite of I Timothy 2:4)
> apparently doesn't. & of course the message of Christ can come to
> people in many different ways.
> >
> > Having said that, I can't really see a fundamental difference
> between what I said & what you're saying, or why your formulation in
> terms of "a powerful tension between science and religion" is either
> more conservative or more reliable than mine. OK, sometimes the
> powerful tension is sufficient to keep people from accepting the
> claims of the gospel. Sometimes the tension is overcome through
> reflection on both science and the gospel. & sometimes a person
> will make a leap of faith in spite of those tensions.
> >
> > Tension, obstacle - put it as you will. It may be that spurious
> scientific claims (e.g., "Science has shown that there is no God
> acting in the world") threaten to convince a person that Christian
> claims must be false. Or it may be that misrepresentations of
> Christianity (e.g., "The need for a savior stands or falls with the
> historical character of Genesis 3") make someone doubt the validity
> of the gospel. Perhaps issues of theodicy (e.g., "How could a
> loving God make use of suffering and death to create life?") raise
> doubts. All those obstacles/tensions involve science, & are
> susceptible to removal by an adequate understanding of the
> relationship between science and theology.
> >
> > & yes, this can be thought of in terms of the relationship between
> Christ & culture, science being an important aspect of the latter.
> Indeed, in today's world it's an unavoidable feature of culture -
> which just reinforces my point.
> >
> > Shalom,
> > George
> >
> > ---- wjp <wjp@swcp.com> wrote:
> >> George:
> >>
> >> You say, "today a lot of the obstacles that keep people from
> coming to
> >> Christian faith have to do with science - some real & some not.
> &
> >> eliminating those obstacles is a task that ASA ought to be able
> to help
> >> with."
> >>
> >> Since I don't believe I, or anyone, outside of the Holy Spirit,
> has
> >> access to how or when people "come to faith," I cannot provide
> >> evidence for whether or against what you say.
> >> However, I would suggest that a more conservative and more
> reliable
> >> claim, and one nonetheless important, is that many today,
> Christian
> >> and non-Christian know and experience a powerful tension between
> >> science and religion.
> >>
> >> It seems to me that such tensions are no more than those
> tensions
> >> between Christianity and Culture that Niebuhr spoke famously of
> in
> >> Christ and Culture. It occurs to me that the ways he spoke
> >> of might equally well be applied to the relationship between
> >> Christianity and Science. Are such relationships exhaustive.
> >>
> >> bill
> >>
> >> On Sun, 6 Sep 2009 12:17:02 -0400, <gmurphy10@neo.rr.com> wrote:
> >>> Agreed that general apologetics is not a distinctive ASA task -
> i.e., one
> >>> in which it has special competence - & thus shouldn't be our
> primary
> >>> focus. But today a lot of the obstacles that keep people from
> coming to
> >>> Christian faith have to do with science - some real & some not.
> &
> >>> eliminating those obstacles is a task that ASA ought to be able
> to help
> >>> with. That doesn't mean that it should be our main emphasis but
> we should
> >>> at least be able to be a resource for others engaged in
> competent
> >>> apologetics - with stress on "competent."
> >>>
> >>> Shalom,
> >>> George
> >>>
> >>> ---- David Clounch <david.clounch@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> ASA members,
> >>>>
> >>>> Regarding the issues raised pertaining to Africa, my feeling
> is those
> >>> sorts
> >>>> of matters really are of concern to ASA members only.
> >>>> Probably many members will disagree with me. Its just that
> when it
> >>> comes to
> >>>> strategies for outreach and mission it seems to me you have to
> get you
> >>>> ducks in a row before starting to catch grenades.
> >>>>
> >>>> As far as the ASA doing basic apologetics for Christianity in
> general,
> >>> I'm
> >>>> not against the ASA doing that. I'm just surprised the ASA has
> to do it
> >>> at
> >>>> all. It just seems slightly misplaced. (So if I am wrong
> here, please
> >>>> tell me so.) Is it not true there are many many other venues
> that
> >>> perform
> >>>> that function? Would it not be more appropriate for someone
> with
> >>> questions
> >>>> or challenges to Christianity itself to go to a more
> appropriate venue?
> >>> I
> >>>> am ambivalent about that. I never had the expectation that it
> is the ASA
> >>>> that had the answers in this area. Or the charter to develop
> those
> >>>> answers. I suspect the enemies of Christianity do not really
> want
> >>> answers.
> >>>> Are they really trying to understand, or are they are just
> making
> >>> trouble
> >>>> and trying to distract?
> >>>>
> >>>> My personal opinion is it is far more important for us to
> dialog with
> >>>> Muslims, for example, than it is to dialog with atheists. We
> have
> >>> something
> >>>> in common with Muslims, and Muslims are far more likely to ask
> a
> >>> question
> >>>> that gives them insight into Christianity than is any
> westernized
> >>> atheist.
> >>>> In fact I would suspect the entire population of China and the
> old
> >>> Soviet
> >>>> Union makes for better dialog than do western atheists. The
> same goes
> >>> for
> >>>> non-believing Africa.
> >>>>
> >>>> So, if we are going to have to regurgitate CS Lewis's moral
> argument
> >>> for
> >>>> God's existence, and that sort of thing, etc,
> >>>> ad nauseum, perhaps we should do it in a form that is more
> likely to be
> >>>> digested by those who are really trying to understand?
> >>>>
> >>>> Dave C (ASA member)
> >>>
> >>>
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> >>
> >>
> >> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
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> >
> >
>
> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
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>
 
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Received on Sun Sep 6 22:50:01 2009