RE: [asa] Radioactive decay of U-238 is imminent (just wait a few billion years)

Hi Pastor Murray-

I think the general population knows what "imminent" means. I think there's some push in theological circles to explain it away, because if not, it looks like the Bible has an error, since it clearly teaches the return of Christ is imminent and that the early believers thought so, and were wrong. The Bible can't be wrong, therefore imminent can't mean what most people think it means. I think this judgment is validated by the quote you gave below- reprinted here- emphasis mine:

" From Wayne A. Grudem, Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine. (Leicester, England: InterVarsity Press, 1994.) 1096n7.

"In this chapter, it must be made clear that I am not using imminent as a technical term for a pre-tribulational rapture position (explained below), but simply to mean that Christ could return at any day, or even any hour. Furthermore, I am not using the word imminent to mean that Christ certainly will come soon (for then the verses teaching imminence would have been untrue when they were written). I am using the word imminent to mean that Christ could come and might come at any time, and that we are to be prepared for him to come at any day."

Bottom line- can you answer this?

Is Christ coming SOON? Yes or no. I think the bible clearly teaches "yes." The only reason for doubting it is history.

Pastor Murray said in a later email:
"As I see it, either environmental concern is a valid Christian concern or it is not. Assuming that it is (and note the assumption!), then we ought to be about it BECAUSE we expect the master of the house to come at any moment rather than abandoning it on that exact basis! But by a rather bizarre logic there are those who seem to think that a purported immediate return of the master actually absolves them from responsibility to obey his commands."

Let me challenge that. Suppose I told you that I was going to come to your house soon, move you and your family out and into a brand new mansion beyond your dreams, and then torch your existing house to make the real estate available for something else. Would you bother to spend money and time fixing your leaky roof, doing landscaping, building editions, etc.? Obviously not. Why would you want to see your work go up in flames, unless of course, you don't believe my promise? In the same way- the promise from the Bible is that Christ is coming soon, and everything will melt in His coming (2 Peter 3).

2 Peter 3

 1Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. 2I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.

 3First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." 5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

 8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

 10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.[a]

 11Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.[b]That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.

George Murphy said:
"There's a big difference between saying (a) "Scripture teaches that Christ's return will be soon" & (b) "Scripture shows us that there was a widespread expectation that Christ would return soon among the first generation of Christians." A very good case can be made for the 2d statement but not for the 1st."

For your case two- if the idea of a soon return didn't come from Scripture- then where else would it come from? Teachers. Teachers who are closer to the Apostles and would have known their teaching more clearly than we do today by reading Scripture. Also- I don't know why 2 Peter 3 (quoted above) doesn't just make it obvious that they thought Christ was returning very soon... the case from Scripture, which you indicate may be hard to make. It seems to me to elaborate on this "soon" idea in great detail.

...Bernie

-----Original Message-----
From: Murray Hogg [mailto:muzhogg@netspace.net.au]
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 12:21 PM
To: Dehler, Bernie
Subject: Re: [asa] Radioactive decay of U-238 is imminent (just wait a few billion years)

Hi Bernie,

Burgy's remark that a dictionary definition is a poor guide when it comes to theological terms struck me as apposite. So I did a quick check of my theological library, and came up with the following. They serve to illustrate the point I've been attempting to make that when used in the context of Christian theology, "imminent" does NOT mean "soon" but rather "at any time" or (as I actually prefer to put it) "suddenly and without warning".

Note that Gudrem has a pretty good response to the claim that the biblical materials teach that Jesus return would be "soon" - like myself he notes that NONE of the texts regarding Jesus return necessarily require such an interpretation.

What's interesting about the below - particularly the passage from Bilezikian - is that it is apparent that there is great possibility for confusion regarding the use of the term. Whereas traditional theological usage (to which I appeal) has used "imminent" to mean "at any time" (now or in a million years) this stand in some tension with the common usage in which "imminent" is taken to mean "soon".

Note that IF one REJECTS (as I do) the claim that scripture teaches Christ's return will be "soon" in favour of the idea that it will be "suddenly and without warning"; and IF one defines "imminent" in accordance with traditional theological usage to mean "at any time" (now OR in a million years), THEN there is no shell-game being played.

Hope the below is helpful in furthering the discussion.

Blessings,

Murray

From Stanley Gundry, "Imminence," in Evangelical Dictionary of Theology (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker, 1984), 551;

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"The doctrine that Christ can return at any moment and that no predicted event must intervene before that return."

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From Wayne A. Grudem, Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine. (Leicester, England: InterVarsity Press, 1994.) 1096n7.

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"In this chapter, it must be made clear that I am not using imminent as a technical term for a pre-tribulational rapture position (explained below), but simply to mean that Christ could return at any day, or even any hour. Furthermore, I am not using the word imminent to mean that Christ certainly will come soon (for then the verses teaching imminence would have been untrue when they were written). I am using the word imminent to mean that Christ could come and might come at any time, and that we are to be prepared for him to come at any day. (Others define imminent more broadly, taking it to mean that Christ could come in any generation. I am not using the term in that way in this chapter.

</cite>

From Bilezikian, Gilbert G. Christianity 101: Your Guide to Eight Basic Christian Beliefs. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1993. 231-32.

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Practically every church creed or statement of faith that mentions the Second Coming confesses that no one knows for certain the time of the Parousia, but acknowledges that it will surely happen. It could happen at the present moment or in a million years, but its eventual occurrence is certain. From a human perspective, the time of the event is unknown, but the fact is unquestionably confirmed in Scripture.

Generally, this is the meaning that the word "imminent" is intended to convey when it is used in relation to the Parousia. Strictly speaking, however, the word "imminent" means something else. According to the dictionary an event is imminent when it is just about to happen. For instance, should someone pull the pin off a hand grenade and let go of it, the explosion of the grenade would be imminent, in the sense that it would happen almost [232] immediately. But should the pin have corroded and seem weak enough to let go on its own, we could not say that the explosion is imminent. All we could say is that it is "possibly imminent," with the exact time being unpredictable.

Likewise for our own individual demise, we all know that death is inevitable. Any of us could die at any moment. But people in reasonably good health do not say that their death is "imminent." This can be said only of people whose vital signs are down and who are visibly on their way out of this life. Thus, to speak accurately, the word "imminent" must be qualified when it is applied to the Second Coming. That is why we have placed it in quotation marks in the title above. We are using the term as a concession to tradition and as an attempt to communicate the concept in familiar terms. But we qualify its meaning here to convey the idea of the possible imminence of the Parousia, an event that will happen for sure but at a time that cannot be accurately anticipated by humans. Indeed, the occurrence of the Parousia could be imminent, but it could also be a long time in the making.

Any discussion of the time frame for the Parousia must be grounded in Scripture. Fortunately, the New Testament yields abundant data in this area. The New Testament gives ample evidence that the early Christians believed in the possible imminence of the Parousia and that they lived in a mode of active expectancy for the Lord's return, yet without attempting to seek signs or to set dates.

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Received on Mon, 26 Jan 2009 13:42:45 -0800