Re: [asa] Darwin only biological evolution? (can anything exist without evolution?)

Iain,
I have a problem with your declaration that time would not exist without
change. It seems to me that time would not be measurable without change.
Imagine a container kept at absolute zero, within it there would be no
change and no detectable measure of time, no change of entropy. But time
would go on outside the container.
Dave (ASA)

On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 08:36:27 +0000 Iain Strachan <igd.strachan@gmail.com>
writes:
> Murray,
>
> Could I suggest here that the definition of "evolution" as "change
> over time" seems to me to be just a little too vague. The very
> fact
> that time exists and has a direction (the arrow of time)
> necessarily
> implies that things change. A universe in which nothing changed at
> all would be timeless. So, IMHO, to say that evolution is an
> overarching concept, as I (so I understand) Bernie wants to make
> it,
> is no different from saying that time is an overarching concept.
> Is
> the study of Newton's laws of motion the study of evolution? In
> one
> sense it is, but it is more specific to suggest that we're studying
> physics here.
>
> Regards,
> Iain
>
> On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 12:46 AM, Murray Hogg
> <muzhogg@netspace.net.au> wrote:
> > Hi Bernie,
> >
> > In the end analysis you're now simply arguing what Greg Arago has
> been
> > saying for years - that "evolution" as an broad umbrella term
> means nothing
> > more specific than simply "change over time," that not all "change
> over
> > time" is of the same sort, and that we need to qualify the use of
> > "evolution" in order to make clear what sort of "change over time"
> we're
> > talking about.
> >
> > And this brings us back full-circle to David O.'s point that any
> > disagreement on the matter is a matter of semantics (but not
> "merely" a
> > matter of semantics). And as long as we keep in mind that the
> mechanisms of
> > "biological evolution" don't apply to what you're calling "meme
> evolution"
> > (which was Iain's point) then I don't see any cause for strident
> objection.
> >
> > I would, however, reiterate the point which I made in response to
> David O.:
> > "evolution" has become such a culturally significant term that is
> critical
> > that any talk of "meme evolution" MUST carry with it a clear
> emphasis that
> > it IS distinct from biological evolution AND that it necessarily
> involves
> > intelligent agency. Failing such distinctions one risks falling
> into the
> > error of thinking that evolution of ideas happens in exactly the
> same way as
> > evolution of bacteria and that, therefore, intelligent agency is
> necessarily
> > EXCLUDED.
> >
> > What you may have missed in my response to David O., by the way,
> was that I
> > was AGREEING with you but merely extending the point to indicate
> the
> > cultural significance of the terminology in question. I wasn't
> claiming you
> > hadn't made the point, I was suggesting that the point is so
> important that
> > it cannot be over-emphasized.
> >
> > Blessings,
> > Murray
> >
> > Dehler, Bernie wrote:
> >>
> >> Pastor Murray- you also said later:
> >> " The question to be asked in respects of the suggestion that
> Beethoven's
> >> Ninth "evolved" is "what accounts for the difference?" If the
> answer is
> >> "intelligent agency" then I think Iain can rest his case -
> Beethoven's Ninth
> >> simply DIDN'T "evolve" through the same sort of processes
> involved in
> >> biological evolution."
> >>
> >> I don't see how Ian can "rest his case" because biological
> evolution
> >> doesn't apply to meme evolution, anymore than cosmological
> evolution applies
> >> to biological evolution.
> >>
> >> The fallacy for rejecting memes is in thinking that new thoughts
> violate
> >> the idea of meme evolution.
> >> Example: suppose I want to invent a flying car. I could put a
> car gas
> >> engine in it. After trying it, I could learn and then decide to
> switch to a
> >> jet engine. Jet engines are radically different than a car gas
> engine. Ian
> >> seems to think that if the change is small, like going from a
> small to a
> >> large car gas-powered engine, that could be meme evolution but
> not going
> >> from car to jet engine. That's the fallacy.
> >> In this way, what's the difference between Beethoven composing a
> >> masterpiece and a 3rd yr piano student writing a new song-- it is
> only a
> >> matter of degree. So what? Ian is impressed by the degree of
> change. To
> >> me, it is like being impressed that a car can go 50 mph, but not
> impressed
> >> that it can go 15 mph.
> >>
> >> ...Bernie
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
> [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
> >> Behalf Of Murray Hogg
> >> Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 3:17 PM
> >> To: ASA
> >> Subject: Re: [asa] Darwin only biological evolution? (can
> anything exist
> >> without evolution?)
> >>
> >> I was responding to David not offering a critique of your
> remarks, Bernie.
> >>
> >> Dehler, Bernie wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Pastor Murray said:
> >>> " It's frankly critical that we be very clear that ideas do NOT
> evolve in
> >>> the same way as bacteria."
> >>>
> >>> I thought I also clearly said that. It makes me wonder if you
> read what
> >>> I wrote.
> >>
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> >>
> >>
> >> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
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> >>
> >
> > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
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> >
>
>
>
> --
> -----------
> Non timeo sed caveo
>
> -----------
>
> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
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>
>
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Received on Thu Jan 15 13:32:03 2009