RE: [asa] scientism question

Jon has already given a lot of good responses. Here is another simple question
for your friend who apparently insists (even if correctly) that we all must
*justify* what we believe. Does he *BELIEVE* everything needs to be justified
(probably scientifically)? If so, what repeatable experiment or empirical
measurement backs up THAT claim? Does that claim itself need to be justification?

Of course, he will probably just shrug all this away. I doubt philosophical
games or logic will reach him. (As C.S.Lewis might say; the enchantment of
positivism has overcome him so completely that he no longer feels its effects
--fish denying existence of water.)

--Merv

Quoting "Dehler, Bernie" <bernie.dehler@intel.com>:

> Jon said:
> " A trivial question to ask someone with "no beliefs" is something like, "Do
> you believe the sun will come up tomorrow?""
>
> I thought of that and tried it a little, but instead I wanted to focus on
> issues of science and religion- therefore life-after-death and abiogenesis,
> for example.
>
> He's definitely an atheist and not agnostic. His position is that if you
> want to introduce something, like the idea of God, you have to justify it...
> and there is NO reasonable justification (it is so clearly obvious in his
> view).
>
> As I wrote the above paragraph, it came to me... maybe the correct approach
> is not to argue "do you have beliefs or not" but instead challenge, more
> directly, his idea that there's no valid/reasonable justification for the
> "God hypothesis."
>
> ...Bernie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
> Behalf Of Jon Tandy
> Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 1:25 PM
> To: asa@calvin.edu
> Subject: RE: [asa] scientism question
>
> The fact that he "doesn't believe in God" or life after death, etc. doesn't
> mean that he doesn't have beliefs. It more probably means "I believe that
> there is no God, no tooth fairy, no Santa, no life after death." Thus, he
> does have a "belief" - that is, he actively believes that those things don't
> exist, so he IS making a metaphysical claim.
>
> If he really doesn't have any belief (i.e. position) on the subject, he
> might more correctly be called an agnostic - it might be true or might not,
> but he doesn't have any opinion on the subject. This might be called a weak
> agnostic position. Whether the weak agnostic is expressing a belief, I
> can't say for sure. A strong agnostic might claim that "No one can know for
> sure about these things," in which they are again expressing a belief claim.
>
> A trivial question to ask someone with "no beliefs" is something like, "Do
> you believe the sun will come up tomorrow?" or "Do you believe there's such
> a place as Antarctica?" If yes, then why? The sun will come up because it
> always has, but how do you know for sure? It's probably a fairly sure
> belief based on past experience, but not certain. He may believe that
> Antarctica is a real place based on the testimony of others, but how can he
> trust it? (Remember the "video" of flying penguins? Even supposedly real
> things can be faked on film.) However, it's probably a pretty good
> testimony to rely on. The fact is that he does have belief in these things,
> thus some beliefs. So his statement of having no beliefs is false.
>
> Next, ask whether he believes science will ultimately solve the problem of
> how life originated. Will science solve the problem of where matter came
> from? (etc.) It doesn't matter from a theological point of view whether
> these things will ultimately be answered by science or not. In this case,
> it's a philosophical question with him. He claims not to believe in
> anything, but there are huge questions that science can't answer. I suspect
> he believes that science will ultimately be able to answer them, thus he
> does have beliefs in the power of science to answer all questions about
> reality.
>
> It's absurd for him to claim that he has no beliefs. But the above lines of
> questioning might lead to other discussion. In the same way, how do I know
> that God exists? Because there are eyewitnesses and my own personal
> experience of His activity, just like there are eyewitnesses of Antarctica.
> Why do you believe that science will be able to solve these questions? Why
> do you believe (if he does) that matter is eternal? Do you have any
> evidence that it's eternal, and not created? If you don't have evidence of
> it, how is this more rational than people's belief in God?
>
> Jon Tandy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
> Behalf Of Dehler, Bernie
> Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 3:00 PM
> To: asa@calvin.edu
> Subject: RE: [asa] scientism question
>
> Keith said:
> " Lastly, the rejection of the existence of God, or of a personal Creator
> God, is a theological claim. Science is not the arbiter of this question.
> The question must be argued and defended on theological/philosophical
> grounds. Atheism, or any religious or non-religious claim is a metaphysical
> claim. "
>
> This atheist says he does not believe in God (just as he does not believe in
> the tooth fairy or Santa). He claims to have no "beliefs" in anything. He
> says that if you believe in God, then it is up to you to justify. Since he
> doesn't, he has nothing to justify. Same with the spirit- if you think it
> exists, then you justify it- he doesn't have to justify it as he has no
> belief. Same with life after death- he says the body dies and that's it.
> If you think something else happens, that's your belief and up to you to
> validate- not him.
>
> See my difficulty in dealing with him? I'm trying to challenge him and get
> him to see that everyone has a "belief system."
>
> ...Bernie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
> Behalf Of kbmill@ksu.edu
> Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 11:43 AM
> To: asa@calvin.edu
> Subject: Re: [asa] scientism question
>
> Bernie wrtoe:
>
> > A questions about the 'scientism' worldview (science is the only
> > reality). (I'm dealing with an atheist like that.)
> >
> > If a person says they accept only 'science,' should they have a
> > logical issue with evolution since there is no scientific
> > understanding of how biological life can arise from non-life? Seems
> > like abiogenesis is a 'belief' based on the evidence indicated by
> > science in general, yet the atheist I'm dealing with claims to have
> > "no beliefs of any kind."
>
> Just a few very brief comments.
>
> Firstly, the fundamental assertion of biological evolution is common
> descent. The validity of common descent is in no way dependent on a
> resolution to the question of the origin of life.
>
> Secondly, origin of life research has made significant advances and greatly
> enlarged our understanding of a number of critical biochemical and
> geological problems. I see no reason why origin of life research will not
> continue to be fruitful. I also would not be surprised that some very
> plausible scenarios for the origin of life will be eventually forthcoming.
> The development of a consensus theory would in no way threaten the Christian
> theology.
>
> Lastly, the rejection of the existence of God, or of a personal Creator God,
> is a theological claim. Science is not the arbiter of this question. The
> question must be argued and defended on theological/philosophical grounds.
> Atheism, or any religious or non-religious claim is a metaphysical claim.
> "Nature is the only reality" is a metaphysical claim and must be defended as
> such. Failure to do so is making no argument at all.
>
> Keith
>
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Received on Thu Jan 8 17:13:17 2009