Re: [asa] The ASA and the Soft Sciences (ASA focus for the future-Christian economics)

I'm sorry Bernie, I've run out of patience here. First, that wasn't your
original question; this is a different question. Second, you'll recall that
we discussed the normative significance of the communal sharing referenced
in Acts on this list ad nauseum a month or so ago. Finally, whether the
Catholic and/or evangelical approach is or isn't consistent with Acts has
nothing to do with whether economics in general is amoral.

If you want to explore this more, from a libertarian / free market
perspective, I'd suggest The Journal of Markets and Morality (
http://www.acton.org/publications/mandm/index.php), from a liberal
perspective, I'd suggest Sojourners (http://www.sojo.net)

David W. Opderbeck
Associate Professor of Law
Seton Hall University Law School
Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology

On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 11:54 PM, Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>wrote:

> David- you don't seem to be answering my specific questions for you.
>
>
>
> Here's one again. In early Acts, it says the believers shared everything
> in common. That is communal living. Does the Catholic idea of economics
> jive with that? Does the evangelical Christian idea of economics jive with
> that?
>
>
>
> …Bernie
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* dopderbeck@gmail.com [mailto:dopderbeck@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Saturday, January 03, 2009 10:30 AM
> *To:* Dehler, Bernie; asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
>
> *Cc:* asa
> *Subject:* Re: [asa] The ASA and the Soft Sciences (ASA focus for the
> future-Christian economics)
>
>
>
> Sigh. By mentioning "regulation" you presuppose a certain framework drawn
> from neoclassical economics. I might suggest the core issues relate to
> subsidiarity and virtues such as prudence and then we'd be talking Catholic
> social treaching. Btw adam smith was writing "moral philosophy" not
> "economics".
>
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> ------------------------------
>
> *From*: "Dehler, Bernie"
> *Date*: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 09:51:00 -0800
> *Subject*: RE: [asa] The ASA and the Soft Sciences (ASA focus for the
> future- Christian economics)
>
> David said:
> "I certainly could identify something as Catholic social teaching."
>
>
>
> Here's a test. Some people say the current market meltdown is because of
> not enough regulation.
>
>
>
> Suppose someone says we need no regulation at all- the markets are
> self-correctable. Please identify for me the religious position of that
> (Catholic, Baptist, atheist, mormon, etc.)
>
>
>
> Suppose someone else says the banks should be heavily regulated. Please
> also identify the religious position for that (Catholic, Baptist, atheist,
> mormon, etc.).
>
>
>
> My claim is that *economics is amoral*. That is why "Focus on the
> Family," for example, doesn't harp on the issue, as they do for stem cell
> research and abortion.
>
>
>
> Is living in a commune (sharing all things in common) "Christian?" Most
> Americans would likely say no, but that is how the first Christians lived
> according to Acts.
>
>
>
> …Bernie
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* David Opderbeck [mailto:dopderbeck@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Saturday, January 03, 2009 6:58 AM
> *To:* Dehler, Bernie
> *Cc:* asa
> *Subject:* Re: [asa] The ASA and the Soft Sciences (ASA focus for the
> future- Christian economics)
>
>
>
> Bernie -- I certainly could identify something as Catholic social
> teaching. I could also identify a neo-Calvinist perspective. These are
> comprehensive worldviews. The modern "science" of economics generally is
> associated with neo-classical economics. This is one fairly narrow view,
> based strictly on utilitarianism and a somewhat positivist view of the
> ability to quantify and measure things like human preferences. One can
> simply have a "Christian perspective" on neo-classical economics, but one
> can also have a broader, comprehensive, Christian view of commerce, trade,
> and justice.
>
> David W. Opderbeck
> Associate Professor of Law
> Seton Hall University Law School
> Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology
>
> On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 11:19 PM, Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> David- you are suggesting that I could give you an economic worldview and
> you could identify it as Catholic, Mormon, Muslim, Baptist, etc.? Sure,
> Catholics and others can apply Christian principles to economics, but I
> don't think it is based on creeds- more like general attributes of sharing,
> love, justice, etc., which cuts across all religions.
>
>
>
> About my comment that no one cares unless there's a crisis. Look at all
> the current talk of excessive CEO salaries and private jets they use, etc.
> During the good times, people say "Yeah- that's the American dream! How
> much is too much? The sky's the limit! They deserve every penny!" In bad
> times, they say "All this greed got us into this mess!"
>
>
>
> …Bernie
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* David Opderbeck [mailto:dopderbeck@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 01, 2009 1:27 PM
> *To:* Dehler, Bernie
> *Cc:* asa
> *Subject:* Re: [asa] The ASA and the Soft Sciences (ASA focus for the
> future)
>
>
>
> 1 -- yes, there are a variety of religious / Christian distinctives on
> economics. There is an enormous body of Catholic social teaching on
> economic justice; there's another strand of vigorous social critique running
> from the early anabaptists to Bonheoffer to MLK to Yoder to Hauerwas; there
> is the neo-Calvinist tradition which largely undergirds many current
> evangelical approaches; and so on. If you don't care about this from a
> theological / spiritual perspective before it hits your 401K directly, then
> your theology and spirituality probably need some work.
>
> 2 -- I'm so tired of hearing that the Church is in crisis because of
> evolution. The Church of Jesus Christ in many ways has never been more
> robust in all the history of Christianity. The gospel is exploding in Asia,
> Africa and South America; the average Christian has never been more educated
> and literate (at least in North America); there is wealth, aid, and support
> being transferred to needy people in the name of Jesus in greater volume
> than ever; and so on. Crisis-talk is myopic and is usually mediated by our
> own personal sense of crisis.
>
> The science of evolution is presenting a painful challenge to one small
> segment of the Church at present -- educated Western evangelicals. This is
> an important segment of the Church, arguably, because it is so wealthy and
> influential. And it is important to those of us who live and minister in
> well-educated Western contexts. But it's hardly a "crisis" in the Church
> universal.
>
> David W. Opderbeck
> Associate Professor of Law
> Seton Hall University Law School
> Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology
>
> On Thu, Jan 1, 2009 at 2:09 PM, Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
> wrote:
>
> One of the problems with economics is that no one cares about it until
> there is a crisis or meltdown. I also don't see how religion plays a part
> in the economy- does an atheist, Mormon, Baptist, or Catholic have any
> faith-based issues or distinctives?
>
>
>
> In addition, Christianity is in a *crisis* right now, over the issue of
> evolution and how to deal with it (is it atheist and ungodly, or God's way
> of design?). I'd suggest that the ASA put more effort into resolving this
> conflict for the churches and scientists. It is easy and tempting to avoid
> the conflict, but I think this conflict is what gives the ASA its prime
> directive. Some people are on the forefront of this evolution battle, like
> Denis Lamoureux and Francis Collins… and they are persecuted by the church
> for it. Will the ASA help and offer discernment? I know the ASA has done a
> lot- just saying it should be a prime focus and even more focused. I'd *
> love* to see some ASA sponsored debates over YEC, OEC, TE, etc. Has the
> ASA done this yet? If not, that's my suggestion.
>
>
>
> …Bernie
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu]*On
> Behalf Of *Rich Blinne
> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 31, 2008 11:03 AM
> *To:* asa
> *Cc:* Randy Isaac
> *Subject:* [asa] The ASA and the Soft Sciences
>
>
>
> The Washington Post just did a massive three-part series on what happened
> with AIG. I found it very fascinating. Since this is off topic please direct
> all comments off list. The issue of economics does bring to mind a comment
> Randy made in the Jan/Feb newsletter:
>
>
>
> We have few economists in the ASA, and we have no particular expertise or
> mission to critique economic policy.
>
>
>
> What are we doing to attract people in the so-called "soft sciences" into
> the ASA? Many areas of interest of the ASA does intersect economics and
> sociology and in my opinion we should do better here.
>
>
>
> Rich Blinne
>
> Member ASA
>
>
>
>
>

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Received on Mon Jan 5 14:15:31 2009