RE: [asa] Is Science an enemy of faith?

Hi Jon,

Just curious to ask what you meant by capitalising 'Science' rather than capitalising 'faith' in the title of this thread? Is it an attempt to raise consciousness about the irony of our 'secular age'?

You wrote:
"'Evolution as science' is a theory of explaining the facts of biology. 'Evolution as anti-theistic philosophy' is something completely different, and is not science. The latter is definitely something to combat from a Christian point of view..."

Two things: First, science is not philosophy just as philosophy is not science. Yet you wrote 'is not science,' and left out 'is not philosophy.' It is a subtle point, but may suggest that you are privileging science above philosophy...in your linguistic expression. It's a communicative issue.

Second, you have been rallying the idea of TE recently Jon. Is it true that TE avoids the relevance of 'evolution as anti-theistic philosophy' using the concept of 'methodological naturalism'? In other words, you seem to be suggesting (i.e. if I'm reading you as you intend to be read) that evolutionary philosophy is anti-theistic, *but* that evolutionary science follows the philosophy of methodological naturalism and therefore need not be anti-theistic. Or are you saying that evolutionary philosophy is neutral about things such as soul, eternity, transcendence, faith, heaven and revelation?

As Mike Gene suggests, evolution is clearly not 'the root of all moral evils.' But those who would contest 'there is nothing evil in evolutionary theories' (i.e. the neutralists) would be advised to check out anthropology's relationship with evolution. There you will find many things to make your hair stand on end when making arguments about ethics, morality, relativism and dehumanisation.

G.Arago

--- On Mon, 1/5/09, Jon Tandy <tandyland@earthlink.net> wrote:
From: Jon Tandy <tandyland@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: [asa] Is Science an enemy of faith?
To: asa@calvin.edu
Received: Monday, January 5, 2009, 6:56 AM

John,

Do you think the evil today is more bold and confident now, than say under
the reign of Nimrod, or under the influence of Baal worship, or during the
Roman empire, just to name a few?

I also think there is a historical frame of reference problem, in that you
reference Paley's natural theology as holding "sway over all
academia".
That only goes back to the early-mid 1800's. What about the thousands of
years of human history before that? That's my point.

Now, I don't disagree that "evolutionism" has made it
intellectually
fashionable to be an atheist, and I don't disagree that there is a
weakening
of moral fabric of society since religion has been marginalized by
post-Enlightenment rationalist philosophy. But the original premise is
based on equivocation of what "evolution" means, in agreement with
the
warfare model of the atheists. "Evolution as science" is a theory of
explaining the facts of biology. "Evolution as anti-theistic
philosophy" is
something completely different, and is not science. The latter is
definitely something to combat from a Christian point of view, but Ken Ham
is neither a scientist nor a philosopher, and he isn't helping bring truth
or light to the debate.

Jon Tandy

-----Original Message-----
From: John Walley [mailto:john_walley@yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 9:15 PM
To: asa@calvin.edu; Jon Tandy
Subject: RE: [asa] Is Science an enemy of faith?

I think there is a qualitative difference between the evil before Darwin and
after. Before it was intuitive and intellectually accepted that God's power
and glory was manifest in His creation and Paley's natural theology held
sway over all academia and most of the culture. The anti-theists were
marginalized and couldn't wield too much power or influence and were forced
to cloister away in secret societies that people mostly distrusted.

After Darwin it became safe and even fashionable to challenge and dismiss
Paley and gradually this gradually replaced natural theology in academia and
it continues so to this day. Asa result the evil today is more bold and more
confident in its prospects to succeed and likely more energized.

I do think Darwinism has had a negative impact on our world and I do think
it is possible that it is the great deception spoken of by Jesus in Matthew.
It is doubly tragic in that it didn't have to be this way but due to the
church not being able to separate out God's mechanism of creation from the
claims of atheism then now we are in the situation we are in.

Thanks

John

--- On Sun, 1/4/09, Jon Tandy <tandyland@earthlink.net> wrote:

> From: Jon Tandy <tandyland@earthlink.net>
> Subject: RE: [asa] Is Science an enemy of faith?
> To: asa@calvin.edu
> Date: Sunday, January 4, 2009, 9:55 PM He is a good guy and a friend,
> and had some good things to say. On the subject of science, he didn't

> necessarily require a young-earth point of view, and he made a typical
> statement at one point about "macro-evolution"
> being the enemy, not micro-evolution. I didn't really get to (or
> choose to) counteract some of his erroneous statements as I might have
> liked to. I wanted to ask, "So was there no abortion, murder,
> genocide, pornography, prostitution, etc. before Charles Darwin? If
> evolution is the root of all these societal evils, as Ken Ham says,
> how can we account for them before Darwin? And if there was another
> source of evil before Darwin, why is there suddenly a different cause
> afterward?"
>
>
>
> This is really the first opportunity for me to have some public dialog
> on this among my church friends. I'm hoping after this to provide
> some online resources, and hopefully have some continued influence on
> these subjects.
>
>
>
> Jon Tandy
>
>
>
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
> [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Nucacids
> Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 7:36 PM
> To: asa@calvin.edu
> Subject: Re: [asa] Is Science an enemy of faith?
>
>
>
> Hi Jon,
>
>
>
> Your presentation sounds very interesting and good. The seminar idea,
> to help prepare youth for the challenges to faith as they head to
> college, is also an excellent idea. What is disconcerting is the
> speaker before you, the one who repeated "the Answers in Genesis
line,
> essentially that evolution is the root of all modern moral evils, and
> it has to be confronted at all costs." That type of message does not

> prepare Christian youth for college - it sets them up for failure and
> disappointment.
> I'm glad you were
> there to balance that message.
>
>
>
> Mike

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Received on Mon Jan 5 07:50:24 2009