Re: [asa] Advice for conversing with YECs

Thank you for clarifying that you are not a YEC. Your statement there is
perfectly clear and I am prepared to believe you. If Michael does not, and
cannot prove from what you have written that you are a YEC, then it is up to
him to eat humble pie on the list. There does remain the question as to why
you continue to associate with an organisation that is quite clearly YEC in
orientation.

I did a Google site-search for "Creationist" on the site of the Earth
History Research Association, and found 56 hits, and all of them seemed to
be to articles with a pro-YEC orientation, including the article that
Michael posted. If you're not a YEC (and I am prepared to believe you on
this), then you must believe that such articles are spreading
dis-information - that the science is just plain wrong. Why do you not
oppose it, or dissociate yourself from the Earth History Research Centre?
What are you doing to set the record straight? It is surely damaging to the
Gospel to promote it on the back of false science, would you not agree?

However, the main point is that , I find your continued speculation (and
that is all it is) about Obama's religion to be morally repugnant, and is
the reason I am going to send you to Coventry unless you retract and admit
to the list that your comments were inappropriate. Furthermore, it is
beyond belief that you can get away with such a blatantly political post on
a listserv that has to do with Science and Religion, as it is completely
off-topic.

I think there are double standards being applied here. You don't like it
when Michael makes false accusations about your being a YEC, and yet at the
same time you cast aspersions on Obama's integrity. Obama states quite
clearly he is a Christian, NOT a Muslim. Why should I disbelieve him, when
I am prepared to believe you when you say you're not a YEC? I'm not going
to apply double-standards.

Let me also add that I don't have a political axe to grind over the US
elections. Since I am British and live in Britain, I am unable to vote. In
British elections, I tend to vote for the Conservative party.

Furthermore, I find that you tell lies about the Trinity UCC. You wrote:

They emphasize the social aspect of the Christian faith and totally forget
the death and resurrection of Jesus

This is utter falsehood. I went to the website of the Trinity UCC and found
the following in their mission statement:

---
What we believe
We believe in you, O God, Eternal Spirit, God of our Savior Jesus Christ and
our God, and to your deeds we testify: You call the worlds into being,
create persons in your own image, and set before each one the ways of life
and death. You seek in holy love to save all people from aimlessness and
sin. You judge people and nations by your righteous will declared through
prophets and apostles. *In Jesus Christ, the man of Nazareth, our crucified
and risen Savior, you have come to us and shared our common lot, conquering
sin and death and reconciling the world to yourself. *You bestow upon us
your Holy Spirit, creating and renewing the church of Jesus Christ, binding
in covenant faithful people of all ages, tongues, and races. You call us
into your church to accept the cost and joy of discipleship, to be your
servants in the service of others, to proclaim the gospel to all the world
and resist the powers of evil, to share in Christ's baptism and eat at his
table, to join him in his passion and victory. You promise to all who trust
you forgiveness of sins and fullness of grace, courage in the struggle for
justice and peace, your presence in trial and rejoicing, and eternal life in
your realm which has no end. Blessing and honor, glory and power be unto
you. Amen.
http://www.trinitychicago.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=20
---
I've highlighted the relevant passage in bold in case you missed it.  Given
that this is what they believe, your statement that they "totally forget the
death and resurrection of Christ" is nothing more than a lie, and you should
retract it forthwith.
And what's wrong with being "unashamedly black" anyway?  Sometimes I'm
ashamed that I have white skin when I see the kind of misery that comes from
racial prejudice.  For too long blacks have been made to feel ashamed and
inferior because of nothing other than the colour of their skins.  Since you
care so much about the equally abhorrent Armenian massacre and
discrimination, I would thought you would have more sensitivity than to make
cheap political points against Obama's church.
Iain
On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 1:38 PM, Alexanian, Moorad <alexanian@uncw.edu>wrote:
> I AM NOT A YEC. If you do not believe me, prove to me by reading everything
> I have written and published that I am a YEC. I challenge you to do that. If
> you cannot, please admit it to the list.   Michael has not.
>
>
>
> Now you raise the issue of homophobic and racist. Have you ever been
> discriminated? Armenians know that as Christians by having been massacred by
> the Ottoman Turks and having experienced strong discrimination wherever they
> we have settled.
>
>
>
> "Our own religion begins among the Jews, a people squeezed between great
> warlike empires, continually defeated and led captive, familiar as Poland or
> Armenia with the tragic story of the conquered." The Problem of Pain, C.S.
> Lewis, p 16.
>
>
>
> Moorad
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Iain Strachan [mailto:igd.strachan@gmail.com]
> Sent: Sun 10/26/2008 9:10 AM
> To: Alexanian, Moorad
> Cc: John Burgeson (ASA member); asa@calvin.edu; George Cooper
> Subject: Re: [asa] Advice for conversing with YECs
>
>
> I can see that the smart thing to do is to add your name to my trash filter
> immediately.  I'm not prepared to listen to this kind of bait-and-switch
> tactic.  The issue was whether on not Obama is a Muslim, and you change the
> subject to black liberation theology.  This is typical of the way the worst
> kind of YEC argues (and note in saying this I am NOT saying you are a YEC
> ... as you say you have not actually written anything that says you are a
> YEC, though you haven't actually said either that you are not.
>
> I have come to realise that the thing I abhor most in life is prejudice -
> both racist and homophobic, because I know of the absolute misery it causes.
>
> Consider yourself sent to Coventry.
>
> Iain
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 12:51 PM, Alexanian, Moorad <alexanian@uncw.edu>
> wrote:
>
>
>        Let us stop this nonsense about Obama. You ask yourself how many
> years you have gone to your church. In addition, how much do you know of
> what goes on from the pulpit while you are not in church?  Well Obama went
> to a church for TWENTY YEARS and claims he did not know the sort of messages
> that were delivered from the pulpit while he was not there. Would you
> yourself make such a claim?  Have you thought that perhaps his wife and
> children were there while he was absent? Obama's church is based on black
> liberation theology-"We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and
> Unapologetically Christian"
> http://www.trinitychicago.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=12&Itemid=27<
> http://www.trinitychicago.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=12&Itemid=27
> >
>
>
>
>        When I lived in Mexico City in the 70's, I was invited by a
> Christian missionary friend of ours to attend a conference where many
> Christians from different countries, especially Latin America, gave prepared
> speeches. There was one from Cuba; BTW, I am Cuban by birth, who presented
> the Christian faith as an appendix of Marxism. They emphasize the social
> aspect of the Christian faith and totally forget the death and resurrection
> of Jesus---the historical event that essentially defines the Christian
> faith. To the amazement of my friend, I stood up and indicated that he was
> co-opting the Christian faith for political reasons. I do not know what made
> me stand up first and speak out, but I did. Let us not be fooled by mere
> sweet words. You are supposed to be smart. Act accordingly.
>
>
>
>        Moorad
>
>        ________________________________
>
>        From: Iain Strachan [mailto:igd.strachan@gmail.com]
>
>        Sent: Sun 10/26/2008 8:13 AM
>        To: Alexanian, Moorad
>        Cc: John Burgeson (ASA member); George Cooper; asa@calvin.edu
>
>        Subject: Re: [asa] Advice for conversing with YECs
>
>
>
>        Moorad,
>
>        What Burgy wrote totally negates what you said.  How can you
> possibly be so dishonest??  Or do you only read the bits you want to hear
> and conveniently ignore the rest?
>
>        You wrote:
>
>        Those who take Genesis literally ought to be the least of our
> worries. We have a presidential candidate who professes to be a Christian,
> nonetheless, he said in a TV interview, "My Muslim Faith." The anchor George
> Stephanopoulos of ABC subsequently corrected him. I ask you, what Christian
> would ever say that, even by mistake? Imagine the damage to the Christian
> faith if such a person becomes president.
>
>
>        That is a disgraceful slander on Obama.  A further Snopes web page
>
>        http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp
>
>        gives plenty of evidence of Obama's Christian faith - including
> pointing out that sometime in the mid-80's he made a public profession of
> faith in a church in response to an altar call.
>
>        The post Burgy sent also ended with Obama saying he finds it deeply
> offensive the suggestions coming out of the republican camp that he is not a
> Christian.
>
>        I also find your post and rumour-mongering deeply offensive.  Please
> either retract them and admit that you were indulging in deeply un-christian
> behaviour, or expect your name to be added to my trash filter so I don't
> have to read any more of this offensive kind of stuff.  You should be
> ashamed of  yourself - not least because your vicious and unfounded
> speculations have nothing whatever to do with the dialogue between science
> and Christianity, which is what this list is supposed to be about.
>
>        Iain
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> -----------
> Non timeo sed caveo
>
> -----------
>
>
-- 
-----------
Non timeo sed caveo
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