Re: [asa] A theology question (imminent return of Christ)

Hi all,

David C. wrote:
"Ironically, these purported "tall tales" do not even require
miraculous action (though Peter and Paul are portrayed as having
supernatural insight). The sudden shock, fear, and guilt of exposure,
especially for someone who believed that God might smite the
disobedient, would not be an experience recommended by a cardiologist.
Likewise, it's hardly surprising that some people out of a fairly
large group would be ill or die, especially under first-century
conditions of publich health-the catch is seeing particular
significance in it. Whether or not the accounts seem credible really
depends on one's a priori beliefs about God's existence and what His
views on sin are. (Not that you must believe that God is out to zap
sinners to accept the accounts as true-you could also think that God
sees such sins as so dangerous that even drastic measures are
justified to get our attention.)"

Well said! As a follow-up, my own view is that it would not be surprising if God took such drastic measures (whether through primary or secondary causes) at that particular point in history because the church was at a very crucial point in its history. If the church had lost its discipline and/or its direction so shortly after its creation, it may well have failed, which God could obviously not allow. I would suggest that this works both ways--just as the punishments may have been more dramatic and severe than at any other time within the church's history, so too were the positive signs and healings. Both were needed I think to testify to the authority of those who carried the Gospel and established the church, and to forge it as an instrument of God that would remain true and that would endure throughout history.

Just my perspective anyway :)
Christine

"For we walk by faith, not by sight" ~II Corinthians 5:7

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--- On Wed, 10/22/08, David Campbell <pleuronaia@gmail.com> wrote:

> From: David Campbell <pleuronaia@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [asa] A theology question (imminent return of Christ)
> To: "asa@calvin.edu" <asa@calvin.edu>
> Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2008, 9:26 AM
> > 2 Peter 3
>
> > 3First of all, you must understand that in the last
> days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own
> evil desires. <
>
> > 8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With
> the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand
> years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his
> promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with
> you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to
> repentance.<
>
> Both of these point to a good chance of the end taking a
> while to
> arrive, not to certainty that it will come right away-more
> scoffers
> are yet to come, don't doubt because things seem slow,
> God's time
> isn't ours, etc.
>
> Although the exact relationship between the present
> physical world and
> the future is debated (destruction and replacement,
> transformation,
> etc.), the point that we are to take good care of the
> things here and
> now cannot be dismissed. It's especially brought out
> in
> Thessalonians. (It may be worth noting that the fact that
> some of the
> Thessalonians were worried about believers dying before the
> parousia
> doesn't necessarily mean that Paul strongly suggested
> that it ought to
> happen right away. Paul got chased out of town before he
> could do all
> the teaching that he wanted, and I doubt that detailed
> eschatology was
> the first priority).
>
> As Paul's correspondence mentions death for himself as
> a very real
> possibility, it is unlikely that "we shall not all
> sleep, but we shall
> all be changed" is intended to express certainty by
> Paul that he would
> be in the "not sleep" category. In context
> (refuting denial of the
> resurrection), as well as in comparison with the fuller
> discussion on
> the state of believers at the parousia in I and II
> Thessalonians,
> Paul's point is that believers, whether dead or alive
> at the time of
> the parousia, will have a similar eternal life. When the
> parousia
> will occur is simply not what Paul is talking about.
> Likewise, the
> antievolutionary use of the "different flesh"
> illustration earlier in
> the chapter is invalid-Paul's point is that they're
> different, and how
> they got that way is not in view. At least the use of
> "we shall not
> all sleep, but we shall all be changed" as a warning
> in church
> nurseries is conscious misuse of the passage rather than a
> purportedly
> legitimate inference.
>
> Because of its being cited in Jude, I Enoch has been
> accepted in the
> Ethiopian church, which in turn is the source of the most
> complete
> manuscripts of it.
>
> Unlike Matthew, Luke doesn't make a big deal of the
> number of
> generations, so seeing particular significance in it seems
> suspiciously eisegetical.
>
> "I've already mentioned the tall tales in Acts and
> in Paul's letters
> in which a couple are struck dead for lying about giving
> all they had
> to the church; and in Paul where he writes apparently with
> a straight
> face about his belief that "many of you are sick/ill,
> and some have
> fallen asleep/died," because of the inappropriate ways
> they were
> celebrating the Lord's supper. He says this was due to
> Christians
> being "judged" by God. "
>
> Ironically, these purported "tall tales" do not
> even require
> miraculous action (though Peter and Paul are portrayed as
> having
> supernatural insight). The sudden shock, fear, and guilt
> of exposure,
> especially for someone who believed that God might smite
> the
> disobedient, would not be an experience recommended by a
> cardiologist.
> Likewise, it's hardly surprising that some people out
> of a fairly
> large group would be ill or die, especially under
> first-century
> conditions of publich health-the catch is seeing particular
> significance in it. Whether or not the accounts seem
> credible really
> depends on one's a priori beliefs about God's
> existence and what His
> views on sin are. (Not that you must believe that God is
> out to zap
> sinners to accept the accounts as true-you could also think
> that God
> sees such sins as so dangerous that even drastic measures
> are
> justified to get our attention.)
>
> --
> Dr. David Campbell
> 425 Scientific Collections
> University of Alabama
> "I think of my happy condition, surrounded by acres of
> clams"
>
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Received on Wed Oct 22 10:55:53 2008