Re: [asa] A theology question (imminent return of Christ)

Bernie said: I think less than 1% of what Jesus told these disciples is
written down (much, much less). Therefore, if they thought He was coming in
their day, which should be obvious from Scripture, then I think it would be
obvious they got the teaching from Jesus directly.

I respond: Bernie, can you cite any scholarly sources for your strong
conclusion about the content of Jesus' unrecorded verbal teachings about his
return -- particularly as they seem to contradict at least some of the
teachings recorded in the gospels? To which school of thought concerning
the relationships among the verbal sayings of Jesus, the oral Jesus
traditions after his death, and the compilation and redaction of the sayings
recorded in the Gospels do you subscribe?

What seems clear to me is that you're wandering into highly complex
territory concerning the Gospels, the historical Jesus, and the early
church, concerning which you haven't invested any real study time, and about
which competent scholars strongly disagree.

On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 4:14 PM, Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>wrote:

> Pastor Murray said:
> "First, it seems to me that your position is that the disciples were
> motivated primarily by a huge emphasis on Christ returning in their
> lifetime."
>
> I guess we'll just have to disagree about that. To me, it is very obvious.
> Ed's post with all the scriptures seem to go overboard in proving the
> point, and I'm (kind of) surprised you still don't see it. But I know other
> Pastors who also don't see it the way I do.
>
> Again, your emphasis is so much on what is written, as if what Jesus
> verbally told them is irrelevant. I think less than 1% of what Jesus told
> these disciples is written down (much, much less). Therefore, if they
> thought He was coming in their day, which should be obvious from Scripture,
> then I think it would be obvious they got the teaching from Jesus directly.
> Especially considering that Jesus appeared to them and taught them over a
> 40 day period after His resurrection (Acts 1:3). We'll never know exactly
> what He taught them after His resurrection, but I'd think they'd be smart
> enough to live their lives accordingly, and admonish others to do the same.
> And the way they lived was in fervent expectation of the immediate return
> of Christ in their day.
>
> We're probably done, because I think we are repeating ourselves at this
> point. Thanks for the discussion. I appreciate the other viewpoints.
>
> ...Bernie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
> Behalf Of Murray Hogg
> Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 11:50 AM
> To: ASA
> Subject: Re: [asa] A theology question (imminent return of Christ)
>
> Hi Bernie,
>
> If I may say, I think the supposition you describe in the below is quite
> unjustified and possibly one of your major problems!
>
> One simply CAN'T work backward from "the disciples believed X" to
> "therefore Jesus taught X".
>
> This is particularly so given there seems to be three major reasons for
> thinking the logic is flawed in the specific case;
>
> First, it seems to me that your position is that the disciples were
> motivated primarily by a huge emphasis on Christ returning in their
> lifetime. But we simply don't find that sort of emphasis in their theology -
> the NT discusses a great many other issues besides. It seems to me
> inconsistent to claim that their overriding ethical category would be a
> return of Jesus in their lifetime (i.e. "Jesus is coming soon so we should
> do such-and-such") whilst it only seems to sneak in as a minor theological
> theme.
>
> Second, in Acts 1:6 the disciples, clearly thinking in terms of Jesus
> establishing the Kingdom of God on earth NOW, put the question of chronology
> to Christ whose response is simply to tell them it's none of their business.
> That the only recorded comment by Christ after his resurrection should AVOID
> specific reference to a return within the disciples lifetime ought to temper
> claims that his unrecorded teaching specifically affirmed the point.
>
> Third, even in the apocryphal gospels there is NO record of Christ having
> taught "secretly" of a return within the disciples lifetime. Given such
> gospels often pick up on minor themes in Christian thought and recklessly
> expand them out of all recognition, I personally think it pretty significant
> that no early Christian "fringe groups" were engaged in eschatological
> speculation based on a supposed unrecorded teaching of Jesus.
>
> To this I'd probably add the observation that, even prior to his death,
> Christ often spoke of eschatology without giving any definite time
> reference. Here, I have to say, it is simply to overstate the case in
> regards to early Christian eschatology if one takes remarks about a return
> which is "sudden and without warning" as being the same thing as a return
> which is "in the next few years."
>
> My view is that their near as certain wasn't, in the teaching of Jesus, a
> specific claim about the date of the eschaton even if claims of a "sudden"
> return were quite naturally interpreted in this way (by us, as well as by
> them). And, even in the disciple's own eschatological musings, I consider
> the emphasis to be on "sudden" with the idea of "in our lifetime" to be a
> marginal theme at best.
>
> Blessings,
> Murray Hogg
> Pastor, East Camberwell Baptist Church, Victoria, Australia
> Post-Grad Student (MTh), Australian College of Theology
>
> Dehler, Bernie wrote:
> > Hi Schwarzwald-
> >
> >
> >
> > I think one of the disagreements I have with you is that you are only
> > considering Christ's words from the Bible. I'm considering the 10x to
> > 1000x more He taught them verbally. We can't get in the same mindset as
> > the early disciples by simply reading some tidbits of Christ's teaching,
> > as recorded in Scripture. They would have been saturated in Christ's
> > verbal teaching; so if they expected Christ's return in their day, I'm
> > supposing Christ taught.
> >
> >
> >
> > ,,,BernieTheology
>
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-- 
David W. Opderbeck
Associate Professor of Law
Seton Hall University Law School
Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology
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