RE: [asa] A theology question (imminent return of Christ)

Hi Bernie,

You wrote:
"When I was friendly to YEC, it was easy to think that Christ could return at any moment. God made this Earth a few thousand years ago, and time may be up soon. With an evolutionary or old earth idea, what's the big deal if Christ waits a few more thousand years- the earth has already been here billions of years..."

Yes, but (modern) human history has only been around several thousand years (maybe tens of thousands, depending on your definition of "modern"). Although Christ's coming is the redemption and fulfillment of all of creation, it is most particlarly tied to the redemption of humanity. So I think in terms of scale, human history and time should be the dominant lens through which you view it.

I would also note, as several others already have in other settings and in other ASA threads, that 1) Jesus says that "but first [before the end] the Gospel must be preached to all nations", and 2) that during the modern era, we have effectively fulfilled God's original Genesis 1 command to "be fruitful and multiply" and "subdue the earth" to the point it may no longer be sustainable for us to do so. Indeed, perhaps (regarding my #1) the fact that the disciples had no idea how big "all nations" really is led them to the erroneous conclusion that they could fulfill the command in their lifetimes, when it really wasn't possible for them to do so. Thus, my current leanings are to understand that Christ's crucifixtion, resurrection, and ascension inaugerated the "end" age (which did happen during the disciple's lifetimes), and that it would make Biblical sense for the delay through the present age, until such time as these other commands were fulfilled. Does
 that mean I believe He will return tomorrow? Maybe, maybe not. It's not for me to know (though it is fun to think about!) My job is merely to be ready, and to be doing the work that Christ has set before me in the meantime.

Speaking of which, I best get back to work...my lunch break is over!

In Christ,
Christine

--- On Tue, 10/14/08, Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com> wrote:

> From: Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
> Subject: RE: [asa] A theology question (imminent return of Christ)
> To: "asa@calvin.edu" <asa@calvin.edu>
> Date: Tuesday, October 14, 2008, 11:51 AM
> Hi Dr. Campbell,
>
> I think your first three paragraphs are a luxury of
> hindsight. I don't think the early disciples would have
> multiple divisions for the future in mind (Jerusalem and
> then the final consummation).
>
> You say " The next major event in earth history will
> be the end of history." I agree. Does that mean you
> don't accept a 'rapture' (Christ's
> "invisible" return to Earth to gather the Saints)?
>
> I agree Acts 4 was an optional thing- but also think what
> would cause someone to sell their retirement funds and
> instead share with the others.
>
> I don't see your reasoning as to why the Thessalonian
> issue wasn't very serious.
>
> You wrote:
> " The age of the earth and evolution are irrelevant to
> eschatology, with possible minor exceptions relating to
> issues such as Christ's connection to all of
> creation."
>
> When I was friendly to YEC, it was easy to think that
> Christ could return at any moment. God made this Earth a
> few thousand years ago, and time may be up soon. With an
> evolutionary or old earth idea, what's the big deal if
> Christ waits a few more thousand years- the earth has
> already been here billions of years...
>
> ...Bernie
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
> [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of David
> Campbell
> Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 8:49 AM
> To: asa@calvin.edu
> Subject: Re: [asa] A theology question (imminent return of
> Christ)
>
> Many commentators see two distinct events envisoned in the
> primary
> apocalyptic section of the gospels (Mt. 24 and parallels).
> There is
> the coming destruction of Jerusalem (cf. 24:2, though it
> was not until
> the AD 135 Jewish revolt that the Temple was destroyed) and
> then
> ultimate end time. A number of specific pointers are
> associated with
> the former, and in fact the Jerusalem church seems to have
> taken them
> to heart and fled before the final siege. Conversely, the
> latter is
> associated with reiterated emphases on not knowing the
> time, not being
> quick to think "Here it is!".
>
> A significant complicating factor is the extent to which
> major
> troubles are seen as a foretaste of ultimate judgement.
> Both get
> described using vivid images, not necessarily thought of
> literally as
> opposed to simply conveying drastic upset to the present
> order.
>
> Another issue is that the coming of Jesus and His life,
> death, and
> resurrection are seen as the definitive arrival of the last
> age. The
> next major event in earth history will be the end of
> history. This
> tells us nothing about how long the last age will be.
>
>
> Although a quick read of Acts 4:32-37 suggests selling all
> that one
> has, 5:4 suggests that such an action was optional; even
> the fact that
> Barnabas selling was noted in 4:36-37 suggests that it was
> not the
> universal practice (of course, many of the other leaders
> may not have
> had much to sell in the first place.)
>
> The Thessalonian correspondence shows that different,
> conflicting
> ideas of just what would happen were circulating, so claims
> that the
> early church was overwhelmingly expecting an immediate
> parousia and
> were seriously disappointed and confused when it didn't
> happen do not
> seem tenable. It was an issue, but not overwhelming.
>
> Decisions on a preterist view must be made exegetically.
> The age of
> the earth and evolution are irrelevant to eschatology, with
> possible
> minor exceptions relating to issues such as Christ's
> connection to all
> of creation.
>
> --
> Dr. David Campbell
> 425 Scientific Collections
> University of Alabama
> "I think of my happy condition, surrounded by acres of
> clams"
>
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Received on Tue Oct 14 14:44:25 2008